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Are internet fan theories killing great shows?
Posted on 5/29/19 at 9:51 am
Posted on 5/29/19 at 9:51 am
I see it as this manifesting itself in 2 ways.
Hypothesis 1: Like LOST and GOT, people start picking up on clues in the show and predict what would happen. The theories are echoed all over message boards, articles, and Comicons. Writers see that people already know what will happen, so they start revising the story in another direction that isn't backed up by previous seasons. This makes good shows go in a "wtf that's stupid" direction. I think there's an RR Martin quote that states something about "you can't write a bunch of seasons with clues saying the butler did it, and then change it after people predict the butler did it"
Hypothesis 2: The theories of 10 million hack/psuedo-writers building off someone elses creation can actually create 1-2 plausibly better storylines. This "ruins" the actual storyline because the months/years of Off-season time between episodes allows these fake storylines to develop and sink in with the fan base. When the actual reveal of the storyline takes place it pales in comparison to what they could have done, which people then say is poor in comparison.
Or do you feel that fans have nothing to do with it?
Hypothesis 1: Like LOST and GOT, people start picking up on clues in the show and predict what would happen. The theories are echoed all over message boards, articles, and Comicons. Writers see that people already know what will happen, so they start revising the story in another direction that isn't backed up by previous seasons. This makes good shows go in a "wtf that's stupid" direction. I think there's an RR Martin quote that states something about "you can't write a bunch of seasons with clues saying the butler did it, and then change it after people predict the butler did it"
Hypothesis 2: The theories of 10 million hack/psuedo-writers building off someone elses creation can actually create 1-2 plausibly better storylines. This "ruins" the actual storyline because the months/years of Off-season time between episodes allows these fake storylines to develop and sink in with the fan base. When the actual reveal of the storyline takes place it pales in comparison to what they could have done, which people then say is poor in comparison.
Or do you feel that fans have nothing to do with it?
22
Posted on 5/29/19 at 9:55 am to Kujo
Yes, I think you nailed it. I wouldn’t have come up with some of the GOT theories on my own, but once they were in my head from the message boards, I was disappointed when they didn’t play out. I think GOT would have been a lot better if I had never read a single theory.
Posted on 5/29/19 at 9:57 am to Kujo
I think it is just piss poor writing. Fan theories isn't a new thing.
Posted on 5/29/19 at 9:57 am to Kujo
Yes, add the last two star wars to the victim list
Regardless of how bad or good the endings of said shows/movies are, the massive hype only leads to letdown.
Regardless of how bad or good the endings of said shows/movies are, the massive hype only leads to letdown.
This post was edited on 5/29/19 at 10:01 am
Posted on 5/29/19 at 10:01 am to Kujo
Agree and I think we first saw this in the prequels. Sure they weren’t good movies but everyone had their own idea of how Darth Vader became Darth Vader. There was no win in that situation and it’s gotten worse with the years with other shows.
Posted on 5/29/19 at 10:04 am to Kujo
Doesn’t seem to hurt Marvel and I would argue there are more fan theories generated for them than anything else.
If you tell a satisfying story, people won’t hate it (at least not in a general consensus). I’m not a GOT fan, but from what I gather reading this board, it sounds like that ending would’ve sucked just as bad with or without fan theories.
If you tell a satisfying story, people won’t hate it (at least not in a general consensus). I’m not a GOT fan, but from what I gather reading this board, it sounds like that ending would’ve sucked just as bad with or without fan theories.
This post was edited on 5/29/19 at 10:07 am
Posted on 5/29/19 at 10:04 am to Kujo
I don’t think it’s a huge deal for a lot of people. I generally don’t theorize or care about how a show is concluded, I just want it to be well done. I was ready for any ending shows like GoT/LOST wanted to tell provided the quality was on par with what the show had proven itself capable of. The ride is what is so enjoyable to me provided it stays true to itself and doesn’t just get lazy or start to suck.
This post was edited on 5/29/19 at 10:07 am
Posted on 5/29/19 at 10:05 am to CU_Tigers4life
quote:
Fan theories isn't a new thing.
But the communication between a global fanbase is.
Wisdom of the Crowd
Even with "Who Shot J.R.", we were limited to the theories from the media. Now you have an immense audience picking through every detail, explaining how certain theories are impossible due to minutia from previous episodes, and zeroing in on a smaller number of possible scenarios.
Posted on 5/29/19 at 10:06 am to Kujo
If you change your writing because someone guessed a twist, either your story wasn’t good in the first place, or you aren’t a good story teller.
Posted on 5/29/19 at 10:08 am to Kujo
In Westworld fans figured out the plot twists pretty early on, so in season 2 the writers made the show unnecessarily confusing so it wouldn’t be as straightforward.
Posted on 5/29/19 at 10:14 am to jsquardjj
quote:
Yes, I think you nailed it. I wouldn’t have come up with some of the GOT theories on my own, but once they were in my head from the message boards, I was disappointed when they didn’t play out. I think GOT would have been a lot better if I had never read a single theory.
I disagree. I came up with a couple of theories of my own for GoT and read many theories, but them not playing out didn't upset me. The end result isn't what upset me, it was the execution of everything. *SPOILER AHEAD*
Like if you told me at the beginning of the season Bran would be king, I'd have said yea that makes sense he can warg into whatever he wants and has an infinite amount of knowledge. But when you show me he basically did nothing the entire season and Tyrion randomly decided he has the best story so he should be king, and everyone just went along with it.. thats when I say wtf.
i.e. I had no problem with the end result, just how they got there. I don't think me not reading fan theories would have changed that.
Posted on 5/29/19 at 10:22 am to Kujo
20 million heads are better than two or three.
Posted on 5/29/19 at 10:27 am to Kujo
Massive hype leads to letdowns, but some shows and movies just suffer from bad writing and try o blame fans for not liking what they wrote rather than blame themselves for writing something that people weren't going to like.
You don't have to be a super fan who reads every book or every message board post about a story to see that Game of Thrones Seasons 7 and 8 are a VASTLY different show from seasons 1-4. If someone had never seen a Star Wars movie before, they'd probably still think Episode VIII is a mess of bad pacing, inexplicable decisions, and meandering plots that go nowhere.
While I feel like internet hiveminds over-analyzing every little thing and prognosticating can take away a lot of the suspense of a show that relies on twists and headfakes, as well as encouraging writers to make their plots more difficult to follow at the expense of good story telling just to spite those people (Westworld), but at the end of the day, fans just want a few things:
1. a consistent world with consistent rules. For example, not everything has to abide by the laws of physics, but if things are going to break those laws, they need to break it the same way every time unless the plot develops a reason why that rule should suddenly be bendable.
2. characters who are either consitent in their convictions or who change over time as experiences mold their character in believable ways
3. plots are not abandoned and are allowed to resolve in a way that makes some sense in accordance with a character's nature or desires
4. subversion of expectations should be forshadowed and done for the purpose of good story-telling, not just for subversion's sake.
Basically, don't make The Last Jedi. Just don't do it.
You don't have to be a super fan who reads every book or every message board post about a story to see that Game of Thrones Seasons 7 and 8 are a VASTLY different show from seasons 1-4. If someone had never seen a Star Wars movie before, they'd probably still think Episode VIII is a mess of bad pacing, inexplicable decisions, and meandering plots that go nowhere.
While I feel like internet hiveminds over-analyzing every little thing and prognosticating can take away a lot of the suspense of a show that relies on twists and headfakes, as well as encouraging writers to make their plots more difficult to follow at the expense of good story telling just to spite those people (Westworld), but at the end of the day, fans just want a few things:
1. a consistent world with consistent rules. For example, not everything has to abide by the laws of physics, but if things are going to break those laws, they need to break it the same way every time unless the plot develops a reason why that rule should suddenly be bendable.
2. characters who are either consitent in their convictions or who change over time as experiences mold their character in believable ways
3. plots are not abandoned and are allowed to resolve in a way that makes some sense in accordance with a character's nature or desires
4. subversion of expectations should be forshadowed and done for the purpose of good story-telling, not just for subversion's sake.
Basically, don't make The Last Jedi. Just don't do it.
Posted on 5/29/19 at 10:28 am to Kujo
No. Because internet fan theories have existed in other mediums for years. When Harry Potter was all the rage, there were numerous internet theories as to how the story was going to play out. The three-year gap between books four and five only made these theories all the more rampant. And you know what? Rowling managed to finish the series in a way that was pleasing to the majority of fans. I came up with a whole slew of theories and not a single one of them turned out to be true. However, I too was pleased because the writing down the stretch was very solid. The plot made sense and the characters evolved with the story in a very satisfying way.
Fans are more intelligent than people give them credit for. They don't care if their fan theories are wrong, they just want the show to end in a satisfying and entertaining way. Game of Thrones failed to do that and it had absolutely nothing to do with our fan theories being proven false.
Fans are more intelligent than people give them credit for. They don't care if their fan theories are wrong, they just want the show to end in a satisfying and entertaining way. Game of Thrones failed to do that and it had absolutely nothing to do with our fan theories being proven false.
Posted on 5/29/19 at 10:47 am to Fewer Kilometers
quote:
But the communication between a global fanbase is.
Wisdom of the Crowd
Even with "Who Shot J.R.", we were limited to the theories from the media. Now you have an immense audience picking through every detail, explaining how certain theories are impossible due to minutia from previous episodes, and zeroing in on a smaller number of possible scenarios.
I get what you are saying but let me use what's happening in the Star Trek Universe as an example..
People love the series so much that fans have been spending their own money making fan films that have been increasingly become more elaborate and in my opinion better stories than is being broadcasted. They are doing this for the love of the series. What does CBS do? the put the legal handcuffs on these people so their own sorry-arse producers and writers don't have to compete with a fan base that knows the product better than the owners.
So CBS makes Discovery and it turns out that it may be a Plagiarism because these weak arse writers can't think of a good story on theory own so they apparently have stolen an idea for a video game that has resulted in a lawsuit:
Star Trek Discovery Lawsuit Update
The video imbedded very nicely breaks down what this issues are if you are interested. I don't know how this will play out but where there's smoke there is usually fire.
The fans of shows and movies pay the bills. It seems like a concerted effort to not give them what they want. These fan theories in a way are like source material when you don't have something to go by like in GOT when D&D surpassed the books. The fans were giving them what they need to make a good story..they chose to shot on them.
Posted on 5/29/19 at 10:54 am to Kujo
Great post.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Social Media is slowly killing everything.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Social Media is slowly killing everything.
Posted on 5/29/19 at 11:01 am to musick
quote:
Social Media is slowly killing everything.
Eh, more than anything people are just much quicker to jump on bad writing.
Avengers did not suffer from this
Posted on 5/29/19 at 11:11 am to kingbob
quote:
Basically, don't make The Last Jedi. Just don't do it.
This, and your other points, are spot on.
Posted on 5/29/19 at 11:16 am to Arksulli
Breaking Bad had rampant internet theories -- partially fueled by Gilligan dropping little clues and Easter eggs throughout episodes -- but because it was an original story, the ending being different from the theories didn't matter that much.
The problem with GoT is that GRRM handed HBO an entire world, described down to the last detail and packed full of centuries of stories, history, clues, etc. that fans could then use to make guesses as to the ending.
the HBO show barely touched 10% of the entire ASOIAF world, but viewers would still go and pull things out of the book as justification for this, or as a clue that something might happen.. and when it didn't, it was disappointing
The problem with GoT is that GRRM handed HBO an entire world, described down to the last detail and packed full of centuries of stories, history, clues, etc. that fans could then use to make guesses as to the ending.
the HBO show barely touched 10% of the entire ASOIAF world, but viewers would still go and pull things out of the book as justification for this, or as a clue that something might happen.. and when it didn't, it was disappointing
This post was edited on 5/29/19 at 11:17 am
Posted on 5/29/19 at 11:16 am to Kujo
quote:
people start picking up on clues in the show and predict what would happen. The theories are echoed all over message boards, articles, and Comicons. Writers see that people already know what will happen, so they start revising the story in another direction that isn't backed up by previous seasons. This makes good shows go in a "wtf that's stupid" direction.
i mean GRRM supposedly asked D/D who John Snow's mother was in their initial meeting so that (at the time) theory was somewhat important to him
if you build a show based around mystery and clues, don't bitch when people discuss that mystery and those clues
lastly, this is what drives a lot of the following of a lot of these shows. the #1 example is True Detective, Season 1. any revisionist history that claims TD wasn't build on mythology and theories is a straight up lie
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