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Started By
Message
re: The Greatest Pitching Rotation of All Time — and It’s Not Close
Posted on 4/4/11 at 1:47 pm to TigerintheNO
Posted on 4/4/11 at 1:47 pm to TigerintheNO
quote:sorry, you're wrong. Bonds had better power numbers, better on base, more steals, etc than Griffey. Griffey is a great player, but I hate when these debates come up.
Sorry I have to disagree
Bonds > Griffey. Where is baloo when you need him?
0
Posted on 4/4/11 at 1:54 pm to TigerintheNO
Looking at just the 90s, Bonds led the league in OBP four times and SLG three times. Griffey led the league in SLG once and never in OBP. Bonds got on base more and hit for more power. Griffey was a better defender and stole more bases. but not enough to close the gap. Bonds was the better player up to 1999, and the numbers back that up.
Posted on 4/4/11 at 1:55 pm to TigerintheNO
And while Bonds was roiding up in his early-mid 30's, Griffey was injured. Griffey was also injured for a year in his mid-late 20's as well. Not sure which year it was though.
Posted on 4/4/11 at 1:55 pm to Baloo
I stand corrected. Bonds stole more bases too. SO... he got on more, hit for more power, AND stole more bases. But Griffey does have a defensive edge.
Posted on 4/4/11 at 1:57 pm to Baloo
quote:
Griffey was a better defender and stole more bases.
Bonds stole way more bases
ETA: k you caught it
This post was edited on 4/4/11 at 1:58 pm
Posted on 4/4/11 at 2:03 pm to Pilot Tiger
Yeah, by a margin of 343-151 from 1990-99. Looking strcily at those years, Griffey hit 302/384/581 and Bonds hit 302/434/602. The difference in OPS+ over the 10 years was 152 to 179. Griffey was an excellent player in the 90s. Bonds was other-worldly.
Posted on 4/4/11 at 2:04 pm to TigerintheNO
quote:But the fact is Jr didn't play past then. Using your 1st 11 seasons for both players:
Bonds was 34 in '99, if you then add Jr's numbers thur the age 34, he would add an additional 103 Hrs & 392 Rbis.
Griffey = 3x AS and 0 MVPs
Bonds = 6x AS and 3 MVPs
Also, some of Bonds best years were later in his career (4 more MVPs). You can't penalize Bonds just because Griffey couldn't stay healthy.
(You can penalize Bonds for the reason he stayed healthy though.
)This post was edited on 4/4/11 at 2:05 pm
Posted on 4/4/11 at 2:16 pm to Baloo
Wasn't an active baseball fan during those years, so have a few questions:
How much did Griffy's nagging injuries play a role in his comparative decreased output?
And was there a significant disparity in the quality of surrounding offensive support between both players?
How much did Griffy's nagging injuries play a role in his comparative decreased output?
And was there a significant disparity in the quality of surrounding offensive support between both players?
Posted on 4/4/11 at 2:17 pm to acgeaux129
quote:
Myers, Rodriguez, Norris, Happ
Lima, Hampton, Reynolds, Unit > Current Stros rotation
Posted on 4/4/11 at 2:22 pm to ZTiger87
We are also assuming that Bonds didn't start using roids in the 90's. He very well could have been in smaller doses, but since it wasn't against the rules, can we really punish him for it?
I'd still take Griffey though. Never committed perjury so that's a plus for me
I'd still take Griffey though. Never committed perjury so that's a plus for me
Posted on 4/4/11 at 2:39 pm to GamecockAlum
quote:
We are also assuming that Bonds didn't start using roids in the 90's.
that's because there are no indicators that he did anything before 99.
This is probably not a good time to mention that there is nothing but anecdotal evidence that it helps anyway.
Funny that when Bonds goes from a career high of 49 to 73 (increase of 24 HR) its got to be roids, even though there were guys in the past like Roger Maris (39 to 61 increase of 22) and George Foster (29 to 52 jump of 23) that had big increses in season best HR totals long before HGH
This post was edited on 4/4/11 at 2:40 pm
Posted on 4/4/11 at 2:56 pm to GamecockAlum
quote:
We are also assuming that Bonds didn't start using roids in the 90's. He very well could have been in smaller doses, but since it wasn't against the rules, can we really punish him for it?
I'd still take Griffey though. Never committed perjury so that's a plus for me
According to various sources, it is believed that he is started in 1999 after the McGwire-Sosa home run chase. He did not want to be left behind.
I know this should be a thread of its own, but many people hate Bonds for taking steroids and/or being an a-hole. However, I just try to objectively look at how transcending he was compared to other players. Go on to baseball-reference.com and just look at some of his numbers. They are so good they do not even make sense. Here is a couple numbers out of countless examples. In 2004, he had an OBP of .609 and 232 walks (with 120 being IBB!). That is barely conceiveable. Without a doubt, I put him in my top 10 players of all-time, yet to create a list, and almost definitely top five as well. Best player I have ever seen play live.
Posted on 4/4/11 at 3:01 pm to Kafka
Great to see the amazing accomplishments of Wynn & Lemon that year recognized in any list.
As if it's not staggering enought that those 2 guys together started 70 games that year at ages 36 and 35 !!!
As if it's not staggering enought that those 2 guys together started 70 games that year at ages 36 and 35 !!!
This post was edited on 4/4/11 at 3:09 pm
Posted on 4/4/11 at 4:03 pm to Baloo
quote:
Looking at just the 90s... Bonds got on base more and hit for more power. Griffey was a better defender and stole more bases.
I think you have some of that backwards.
Griffey hit more Hrs and drove in more runs than Bonds in the decade. Bonds hit more than 40 Hrs twice (46 being the most), Griffey after '95 never hit less than 46 HRs, but did have 56 twice. Slugging %, they both bested the other 5 times.
Bonds stole more bases than Griffey in the '90s
Posted on 4/5/11 at 6:07 am to NHTIGER
quote:
Great to see the amazing accomplishments of Wynn & Lemon that year recognized in any list.
As if it's not staggering enought that those 2 guys together started 70 games that year at ages 36 and 35 !!!
Their combined VORP was 146.2 and their combined age was 71
In 2002, Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling topped that
Their combined VORP was 150.4, while their age was 73
Posted on 4/5/11 at 6:11 am to GamecockAlum
quote:
We are also assuming that Bonds didn't start using roids in the 90's. He very well could have been in smaller doses, but since it wasn't against the rules, can we really punish him for it?
Bonds started roiding up in '99 because he saw guys like McGwire and Sosa (who he was way better than) hitting all of these home runs and getting ALL of the attention from the fans and media.
Chicks dig the long ball. Those commercials were funny, but so true at the same time.
Posted on 4/5/11 at 6:22 am to TigerintheNO
quote:
I think you have some of that backwards.
Griffey hit more Hrs and drove in more runs than Bonds in the decade. Bonds hit more than 40 Hrs twice (46 being the most), Griffey after '95 never hit less than 46 HRs, but did have 56 twice. Slugging %, they both bested the other 5 times.
Bonds stole more bases than Griffey in the '90s
RBIs don't really matter that much. In the years Junior was racking up a ton of RBIs (late 90s), the lineup he was in compared to Bonds was much better.
Bonds had a higher OPS than Griffey 8 out of 10 years in the 90s, which is the telling statistic to me. And the two years Griffey beat Bonds in that statistic, he beat him by .02 and .03, so they were virtually even.
This post was edited on 4/5/11 at 8:58 am
Posted on 4/5/11 at 6:29 am to NHTIGER
quote:
Great to see the amazing accomplishments of Wynn & Lemon that year recognized in any list.
As if it's not staggering enought that those 2 guys together started 70 games that year at ages 36 and 35 !!!
Until the Braves and the rise of VORPs and sabretoothmetrics or whatnot, many observers considered the Indians rotation of that time to be the greatest ever.
Posted on 4/5/11 at 6:52 am to Kafka
I will end this thread and do not know if anyone else yet has put them down:
1954 Indians
1. Bob Lemon
2. Early Wynn
3. Mike Garcia
4. Bob Feller
The first three were 20 game winners. The 4th is one of the 5 greatest pitchers of all time.
1954 Indians
1. Bob Lemon
2. Early Wynn
3. Mike Garcia
4. Bob Feller
The first three were 20 game winners. The 4th is one of the 5 greatest pitchers of all time.
Posted on 4/5/11 at 7:24 am to PiscesTiger
quote:
I will end this thread
like hell you will
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