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re: Petro Dollar days numbered? Saudi/China Oil deal

Posted on 3/29/23 at 7:10 am to
Posted by ynlvr
Rocket City
Member since Feb 2009
5551 posts
Posted on 3/29/23 at 7:10 am to
quote:

as long as the riyal/usd peg remains in place.

This sums up the potential dilemma
Posted by td1
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2015
3177 posts
Posted on 3/30/23 at 1:41 pm to
Current rate is 1 Yuen = .15 dollars.
Posted by SaintsTiger
1,000,000 Posts
Member since Oct 2014
2105 posts
Posted on 3/30/23 at 2:53 pm to
Well if they deal in yuan with the Saudis for oil then no dollars are needed. Do you see why?

Same thing with other trading partners.

Through the belt and road initiative China is building infrastructure such as roads, train tracks and ports around the world. The countries get a low interest rate to pay China back. But the hook isthey have to trade with China and if they default then China owns the infrastructure.

Meanwhile the US just gives away foreign aid money.
Posted by Turf Taint
New Orleans
Member since Jun 2021
6010 posts
Posted on 3/30/23 at 3:09 pm to
Would this transition away from USD not hurt China significantly given its disproportionate connection to USD in its US debt interests?
Posted by SaintsTiger
1,000,000 Posts
Member since Oct 2014
2105 posts
Posted on 3/30/23 at 3:16 pm to
Sure. That’s why they’d quit buying new treasuries.
This post was edited on 3/30/23 at 3:17 pm
Posted by TigersnJeeps
FL Panhandle
Member since Jan 2021
2869 posts
Posted on 4/2/23 at 7:09 am to
Seems China and a French company also used the Yuan for an LNG deal...

Reuters
Posted by cwill
Member since Jan 2005
54755 posts
Posted on 4/3/23 at 9:37 am to
quote:

They’re dealing in Chinese Yuan. LINK


They purchased interest in a Chinese refinery located in China, so, yeah, they paid in yuan.

quote:

This makes our currency likely to decline, right? Would gold be a safe place to park cash now as a currency (and also inflation) hedge?


The US dollar makes up 60%+ of world currency and the yuan is sub 3%. Nobody wants a currency from an opaque, autocratic regime.

Even the recent trade in nat gas that was reported as the first trade in yuan wasn't as advertised. The trade was in yuan between Total (the intermediary trader) and China, but the purchase of the gas from the UAE by Total was in USD.

The USD is still king, back by a nation with institutional continuity and the most powerful military in world history.

Get out of the weeds of US politics when looking at this issue.
Posted by cwill
Member since Jan 2005
54755 posts
Posted on 4/3/23 at 9:39 am to
quote:

Would this transition away from USD not hurt China significantly given its disproportionate connection to USD in its US debt interests?



Yes.
Posted by GurleyGirl
Georgia
Member since Nov 2015
14570 posts
Posted on 4/3/23 at 11:52 am to
And now Brazil and Mexico are getting on the Chinese bandwagon.
Posted by olemissfan26
MS
Member since Apr 2012
6968 posts
Posted on 4/3/23 at 1:57 pm to
Elections have consequences. The “adults” back in charge are eager to see how much power we can give up in 4 years.
Posted by olemissfan26
MS
Member since Apr 2012
6968 posts
Posted on 4/3/23 at 2:00 pm to
quote:

Get out of the weeds of US politics when looking at this issue.


China is playing the long game hoping we don’t pay attention and it’s working.
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
39859 posts
Posted on 4/3/23 at 2:23 pm to
quote:

China is playing the long game hoping we don’t pay attention and it’s working.
How many more mis-steps would China have to make for people to stop using this tired trope? Their supposed long game is frickING TERRIBLE.
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
39859 posts
Posted on 4/3/23 at 2:25 pm to
quote:

Get out of the weeds of US politics when looking at this issue.
If you haven't figured it out by now, many people on here WANT bad things to happen.
Posted by Pendulum
Member since Jan 2009
8058 posts
Posted on 4/3/23 at 5:18 pm to
Man, if they are playing the long game, they really fkd up. Their age demographic issues are worse than any other country in the world, and the problems will arrive sooner in time. They must change the world order or they lost bc they fricked up their long game that much.
Posted by Pendulum
Member since Jan 2009
8058 posts
Posted on 4/3/23 at 5:20 pm to
quote:

If you haven't figured it out by now, many people on here WANT bad things to happen.


It's because Americans care more about their political gangs winning than the actual country itself, and only seek out narrative reinforcing data while simulateneously living in social media echo chambers where theres no opposing thought, also constantly living years in the past on issues that don't even matter anymore. Who cares if we exist or not, as long as those damn libs or conservatives get what's coming!

It's an epidemic on both sides of the political spectrum.
This post was edited on 4/3/23 at 5:25 pm
Posted by GREENHEAD22
Member since Nov 2009
20845 posts
Posted on 4/3/23 at 5:52 pm to
You need to dig a little deeper, they are using Africa to correct this issue. It had been awhile since I read the report but there has been Millions of Chinese men sent to Africa permanently, mostly for the BRI. They are also highly incentivized to take local brides and procreate which they have been doing.
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
39859 posts
Posted on 4/4/23 at 12:22 am to
FT, so paywalled, but good article explaining why all of this nonsense is a drop in the bucket. The relevant part is that the hedging market is 88X the physical market - and almost ALL of that trades in USD too:

quote:

When trading oil — as with most commodities — hedging is key. In 2022, the daily average of traded volumes and open interest in the primary global crude oil futures markets were above 7bn barrels. That’s about 88 times the daily global crude oil output. The ‘multiplier’ of global crude oil output to the crude oil futures markets is thus 88.

China wants to purchase more oil in renminbi and indeed, needs to purchase oil denominated in something other than US dollars, as some important suppliers (Iran, Venezuela and Russia) are sanctioned by the US. China set up its own commodity exchange in Shanghai — the Shanghai International Energy Exchange (INE) — in 2018, for oil futures contracts settled in renminbi with physical delivery.

The contracts traded there are denominated solely in the Chinese renminbi, while all other contracts traded globally are denominated in US dollars. However, the sums traded in Shanghai remain pretty small.







quote:

In December China asked more of its suppliers — not only those sanctioned by the US — to settle trades in Shanghai and to accept payment in renminbi. A potential deal between China and Saudi Arabia also captured some attention late last year. That’s understandable, given that a deal between the world’s largest oil exporter and the single biggest importer could potentially could involve large volumes settled in renminbi instead of US dollars. But does it actually move the needle?

Nothing has been agreed formally, but even if we assume that around 1/3 of the approximately 1.5mn barrels per day of Saudi Arabian exports to China are settled in renminbi, this would imply an additional 0.5mn barrels per day traded directly on the Shanghai exchange. The direct impact is minimal considering the daily average traded volumes on the exchange was 245mn barrels in the fourth quarter of 2022.

Exports from Saudi Arabia are often sold under term contracts, with regular flows of agreed volumes, and — importantly — at a price which is largely priced off the US dollar-denominated Brent benchmark. Ultimately, pricing risk therefore remains largely linked to Brent, and physical volumes settled in renminbi are unlikely to trigger a major shift in the participation in the financial futures markets.

Assuming for simplicity that the increase in renminbi-denominated futures contracts traded would increase in line with the global multiplier of 88, this would entail an increase of 44mn barrels. All else equal, the volumes traded in Shanghai would then account for 5.8 per cent of the global total, instead of the current 5.1 per cent.





quote:

Let’s be unrealistic for a second and assume that Saudi Arabia agrees to accept payments in renminbi for all of the oil it sells to China. Even if it did — and the volumes traded in the renminbi futures market increased by 88 times that much — Shanghai would still only account for 7.1 per cent of the global total.

Taking it an even bigger step further, let’s assume that all of China’s oil imports are settled in renminbi. This would (based on the same assumptions) result in the share of renminbi-based oil futures contracts rising to 15-20 per cent of the global total. The remainder would still be denominated in US dollars.

These back-of-the-envelope calculations show how even in an extreme scenario where China purchases all of its oil in renminbi, the US dollar would still be dominant in oil trading.

These calculations have assumed a multiplier of 88 from the physical oil settlements in renminbi and the resulting increase in futures trading at Shanghai’s INE. For the international benchmark Brent, this multiplier is in the order of 1000s, meaning the volumes traded in the futures market is more than 1000 times as large as the physical trade underpinning the Brent benchmark.

How big the multiplier could potentially be for renminbi settlements in Shanghai takes us back to the core question. It depends on whether a new, international crude oil benchmark contract — based on renminbi and traded in Shanghai — could emerge and challenge the current international Brent benchmark denominated in US dollars.

If it did, the multiplier could be a lot higher, and trading in renminbi-based futures contract could account for a far larger share of the total. But as long as there’s no renminbi denominated benchmark it will not.

China cannot “internationalise” its currency simply by paying for all of its oil imports in renminbi. It has to convince third parties to trade in renminbi as well. Even if more Russian barrels are settled in renminbi, this wouldn’t make the INE a global crude oil benchmark either.



LINK
Posted by Cdawg
TigerFred's Living Room
Member since Sep 2003
61998 posts
Posted on 4/4/23 at 3:29 pm to
quote:

Through the belt and road initiative China is building infrastructure such as roads, train tracks and ports around the world. The countries get a low interest rate to pay China back. But the hook isthey have to trade with China and if they default then China owns the infrastructure.

Dig a little deeper and see how that is working out for them.

Simply put, would you want to do a transaction in a currency that promotes transparency with transactions or do you trust a currency that says it's worth this much because the communist party says it is?
Posted by JayDeerTay84
Texas
Member since May 2013
9956 posts
Posted on 4/4/23 at 7:29 pm to
quote:

Dig a little deeper and see how that is working out for them.

Simply put, would you want to do a transaction in a currency that promotes transparency with transactions or do you trust a currency that says it's worth this much because the communist party says it is?


They are setting up BRICS to be backed by actual commodities.

Its a serious threat because the US dollar is currently backed up by a military that is pushing an active global trans agenda.
This post was edited on 4/4/23 at 7:30 pm
Posted by skewbs
Member since Apr 2008
2212 posts
Posted on 4/4/23 at 8:14 pm to
quote:

It's because Americans care more about their political gangs winning than the actual country itself, and only seek out narrative reinforcing data while simulateneously living in social media echo chambers where theres no opposing thought, also constantly living years in the past on issues that don't even matter anymore. Who cares if we exist or not, as long as those damn libs or conservatives get what's coming!


I hate when people bring politics to other boards, especially the MT, but damn this was really well-worded and spot on. I agree 100%.
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