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re: Why men's basketball has struggled so much offensively
Posted on 1/27/23 at 1:18 pm to Mikethegreattiger
Posted on 1/27/23 at 1:18 pm to Mikethegreattiger
quote:
You guys keep comparing WW and MM. They are different styles.
No one is comparing Wade and McMahon. The statement was you saw last year when Wade tried to run the same offensive approach that was highly successful in years 1-4 it didn't work because it didn't fit that particular roster's strengths.
Point being, ANY coach if he wants to have success has to figure out what his players can do best. That sometimes means the coach has to deviate from his preferred approach.
1
Posted on 1/27/23 at 1:46 pm to Alt26
quote:I think last year's offense suffered from the same problem as this year: A lack of shooters. They even burned JWill's redshirt in a desperate search for more scoring. They were just able to get more scoring from steals in their press. This team doesn't have the elite defenders.
No one is comparing Wade and McMahon. The statement was you saw last year when Wade tried to run the same offensive approach that was highly successful in years 1-4 it didn't work because it didn't fit that particular roster's strengths.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 1:55 pm to Alt26
quote:correct.
Good coaches figure out the approach that maximizes the strengths of their rosters. Average to bad coaches keep banging their heads against the wall with the same approach hoping for different results, then saying they just don't have good enough guys to execute.
Don't coaches have a binder (sorry about that) with many different offenses, for different types of talent. I mean, one (or more) offenses when your talent is more guard-heavy (whether its penetration or perimeter jumpers); another offense when your big guys are your strength; one offense when you have a size advantage; another when you're small, etc.
Same for the defenses. Different zones, different man-to-man styles, hybrids, etc.
I mean, these coaches are paid millions - they know their roster from tape and from pre-season practice, and from early season games. They should be able to figure out the team's strengths and weaknesses, and scheme accordingly. Doesn't the coaching staff meet frequently to discuss these types of things?
Trying to shove a square peg in a round hole isn't coaching. Hell, any middle school coach could do that.
This post was edited on 1/27/23 at 1:57 pm
Posted on 1/27/23 at 2:29 pm to mmcgrath
quote:
I think last year's offense suffered from the same problem as this year: A lack of shooters.
I guess the first question is to define "shooters". Is it 3 point shooters? Because Wade was pretty clear about his offensive objectives. He wanted three shots: At the rim; 3 pointers; Free Throws. Mid-range shots were "inefficient" shots in his mind and he didn't want them. Days was only last year's team just as he was the previous 3 seasons. He was primarily a 3 point shooter. Eason shot 43% from 3 in SEC play. In relatively limited attempts Wilkinson was 44% from three in SEC play. That team had some "shooters" relative to what they wanted to do. Probably not in the mold of a Cam Thomas, or even a Javonte Smart, but enough. Where the offense REALLY struggled was that LSU was last in SEC play in turnovers per game. If you go to prior years those elite offenses didn't turn the ball over. Hell, Wade's best team, 18-19, was his worst 3 point shooting team. That group couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat.
NO ONE is going to mistake this team for prime Golden St, but part of good offense is getting guys some good shots. Now, in McMahon's defense LSU is terrible at finishing at the rim. A layup is a GREAT shot...if you can make it. But as the video pointed out, far too often LSU is getting into their HC offense late...generally with a lot of confusion and little ball movement. The fact they don't have many individual shot creators makes that harder to overcome. But still, scoring 40 ppg, and below 60 continuously is more than simply a talent problem. This team is just not creating a lot of great looks. And they aren't getting to the FT line either.
quote:
They were just able to get more scoring from steals in their press.
LSU really didn't press a ton last year. You just had some guys in the halfcourt who were great at getting deflections. Eason being the best. But you make a good point. If then offense is clearly struggling in the half court...and I think we would all agree that it is...then why not try to generate points in another way? Extend your defense. Try to create turnovers. If you get beat a few times for easy baskets, so what? You are already getting stomped by 20 night after night. Obviously it was against much weaker competition, but LSU was pretty good at generating turnovers earlier in the season. Now, they are 2nd to last in the league in that category. It is as if McMahon determined LSU was going to play a slow tempo half-court game come hell or high water in the conference and he's not willing to deviate. To be fair, it worked in the first two games. Then, the league adjusted. Those adjustments have resulted in LSU not even being competitive. So now you have to try a new approach.
In the last 7 disasters LSU has had only two notable runs. The first was out of the half vs. Auburn where they increased the tempo. The second was in the second half when they started turning Arkansas over. Seeing that, why not try that style a bit? Sure you are likely going to turn the ball over a bit more. And you are likely going to pick up a few more fouls. But can things really get any worse than they are now? Just going out with the same approach tomorrow and saying "Well, I hope this works this time" is not going to do anything but result in another lopsided loss and even further diminish the belief the players have in the staff.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 2:44 pm to Alt26
There's a lot of really good responses in this thread.
To just say "it's a talent issue" is lazy.
To just say "it's a talent issue" is lazy.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 2:55 pm to Alt26
My Guy Alt26 makes me feel like he’s taking my thoughts directly from me. Everything he posts is exactly how I feel. To add to your comment about the two runs we had vs Auburn and Arky, it really comes down to we make 3-4 shots in a row and the other team would miss theirs. But as we have all stated, we can’t score from anywhere on the court and the only reasons the games are 20 point losses is because the rules state we have to start tied 0-0. Mac has got to get some talent to BR ASAP. Hell give me 8 pure shooters that can’t do anything else and we’d at least have a shot every night.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 3:00 pm to CP3forMVP
quote:
To just say "it's a talent issue" is lazy
Consider the poster. Lester Earl is a narcissist and feels like he has to be the smartest person in the room. Saying "it's talent /thread" is just him not being smart enough to add anything to the thread, but at the same time trying to still show everyone he is the smartest one here.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 3:06 pm to Alt26
quote:We definitely utilized a press, either half court of 3/4 court when Eason and Gaines came off the bench, and more importantly Efton went to the bench. We stopped pressing as much when Pinson got hurt. I think they were worried about Haines getting in foul trouble.
LSU really didn't press a ton last year. You just had some guys in the halfcourt who were great at getting deflections. Eason being the best.
quote:We really don't have the team speed and athleticism to do that in the SEC. This team really has to be able to grind to win some of these games.
But you make a good point. If then offense is clearly struggling in the half court...and I think we would all agree that it is...then why not try to generate points in another way? Extend your defense. Try to create turnovers.
That will change when we face the bottom of the SEC finally. Might be a blessing in disguise that JHill missed the last few games as he should be rested. Not like he would have altered those outcomes anyway.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 3:27 pm to CP3forMVP
Should have McMahon seen it coming?
Oh the staff knew of every shortcoming thus roster had. But he’s creating his culture going to run his stuff that he’s been successful with as he should. He’s under no pressure by the man that pays him and he won’t be fur 3 more years He’s doing it his way and we will see it succeed or fail I think he succeeds
Oh the staff knew of every shortcoming thus roster had. But he’s creating his culture going to run his stuff that he’s been successful with as he should. He’s under no pressure by the man that pays him and he won’t be fur 3 more years He’s doing it his way and we will see it succeed or fail I think he succeeds
Posted on 1/27/23 at 3:29 pm to CP3forMVP
If he only knows 1 offense he isn’t a P5 level coach.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 3:41 pm to redfish99
His inability to evaluate his own guys is another red flag. You can take the stretches of good play during the season and directly correlate that to certain personnel groupings. These stretches seem to have been random, chance situations that McMahon doesn’t recognize and can’t capitalize on.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 4:04 pm to redfish99
quote:
Oh the staff knew of every shortcoming thus roster had. But he’s creating his culture going to run his stuff that he’s been successful with as he should. He’s under no pressure by the man that pays him and he won’t be fur 3 more years He’s doing it his way and we will see it succeed or fail I think he succeeds
The problem is in college basketball today, particularly at the major conf. level, you are almost always going to have significant roster turnover from year to year. So you "create a culture" with the team this year...then 50% or more of those guys won't be here next season. So you are "creating a culture" from scratch once more. I know it wasn't ideal timing, but this is McMahon's roster. He selected the players. 90% of players that entered the portal did so AFTER he got the LSU job. So he had the opportunity to push for the guys he needed to run his system. If he couldn't land them. Fine. That's understandable. But that means you have to change your system to fit what you do have this season and try to next year get the guys you need to get things done "your way". In the meantime, do what you can to try to be competitive now while you recruit to your preferred system.
Wade didn't have his most talented roster in year one. In fact, they were picked to finish last in the SEC. But he did enough to at least be competitive in most games with that group before taking a big step the following season.
Even moreso did Johnny Jones in his first season. He took over a program that had gone 40-54 (12-36) in the prior three seasons. His first roster had 6'5 JUCO transfer Shavon Coleman as the primary power forward, a tuba player starting at Center; two sub 6 ft guards, and guys like Charles Carmouche, Corban Collins, Jalen Courtney filling in the gaps. That team didn't have a losing record in SEC play for the first time in 3 years. There were a few 10+ point loses mixed in, but they were competitive most nights
This team may begin a remarkable turnaround tomorrow and we will be having a much different conversation at the end of the year. But right now they are performing akin to LSU in 16-17 (Jones' final season) and years 2-3 of the Trent Johnson debacle. While LSU doesn't have a top 5 SEC roster this year, they sure as hell shouldn't have a get your arse kicked by 20 points every night roster either. And I don't think they do. The staff is just not getting it done right now.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 4:14 pm to Madking
quote:
If he only knows 1 offense he isn’t a P5 level coach.
I’m sure he knows more than one, and could coach on more than one, but some coaches are just hard headed man. McMahon has portrayed that characteristic so far.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 4:28 pm to CP3forMVP
Correct but even best case scenario if he had ideal talent for what he wants to do we don’t impose or dictate pace or style to any team. Even vs the poor non conf schedule he doesn’t impose what we want to do to anybody. We’re reactionary on both ends and very vanilla with little to no adjustments. Florida was a perfect example, down 10 with 3 minutes left we were still not pushing the ball and draining the shot clock down before looking to score. He’s just overmatched at this level.
This post was edited on 1/27/23 at 4:34 pm
Posted on 1/27/23 at 5:07 pm to Madking
I'm with Lester. This team lacks SEC level talent.
When you miss as badly as we do with alot of open looks, is that the coach.
If you miss 50% of layups or point blank looks is that the coach?
CMM does share some blame, but he's playing with a pretty bad hand.
KJ has proven to be the only SEC caliber player.
Now if this is still the issue in year 2 and 3, different story.
Let's see what kind of portable players he can get this year.
When you miss as badly as we do with alot of open looks, is that the coach.
If you miss 50% of layups or point blank looks is that the coach?
CMM does share some blame, but he's playing with a pretty bad hand.
KJ has proven to be the only SEC caliber player.
Now if this is still the issue in year 2 and 3, different story.
Let's see what kind of portable players he can get this year.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 5:19 pm to CP3forMVP
I appreciate the effort you put into this, because I honestly haven’t studied much of this years schemes. I don’t like that we haven’t figured it out, but I also don’t know that a radical change is going to produce much difference. KJ often gets doubled as soon as he touches the ball, when we have 2 bigs, which seems like most the time I have watched, the 2nd big isn’t a threat from outside 6 feet. Which makes the double easy. None of our point guards have shot the 3. So the perimeter defense for the screen can sag off enough to stop any roll action. Basically I don’t think we have the personnel to score, nor the time to switch it up and be effective. Hopefully mwani can come back and hit corner 3’s again to at least break it up a little bit rather than just committing to a soft zone and letting us shoot poorly.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 8:27 pm to Mats86
quote:
Hopefully mwani can come back and hit corner 3’s again to at least break it up a little bit rather than just committing to a soft zone and letting us shoot poorly.
He’s out for the rest of the season
Posted on 1/27/23 at 8:41 pm to Lester Earl
We have a talent issue this year and it’s not looking better for next year. Sitting at 51 isn’t good.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 8:42 pm to Mats86
I reas that Mwani has been hurt all season and is out for the season. We definitely could’ve used his 3 point shooting and defense. At least he was an SEC player.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 8:58 pm to CP3forMVP
quote:
To just say "it's a talent issue" is lazy.
Nah, it just really is that simple.
Dude even bad teams have 1 bucket & 1 banger and this team has neither. There isn’t one person on this team that can get a shot when they want it. And that isn’t coachable
LSU was a 6 seed last year, a decent, ok college team, and they may be have 2 guys that would get significant minutes on that team.
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