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Why men's basketball has struggled so much offensively
Posted on 1/27/23 at 11:03 am
Posted on 1/27/23 at 11:03 am
Little by little I've been looking into Matt McMahon's history offensively and after the Arkansas game I really dove into what he ran at Murray St, and what he's ran at LSU, and tried to breakdown some of the issues I see.
So here's kind of a small breakdown on what I found, and one of his favorite looks, which is a 1-4 low ball screen motion offense:
LINK
So here's kind of a small breakdown on what I found, and one of his favorite looks, which is a 1-4 low ball screen motion offense:
LINK
This post was edited on 1/27/23 at 11:22 am
10
Posted on 1/27/23 at 11:22 am to CP3forMVP
People here dont like information. They like to scream hysterically without data.
I on the other hand, appreciate information. So thanks for posting this
I on the other hand, appreciate information. So thanks for posting this
Posted on 1/27/23 at 11:30 am to Shaq4prez
No problem! We were hearing a ton of hate for Matt McMahon as well as a ton of "we just don't have the horses!"
I myself honestly kept going back and forth, so I really wanted to try and make a well informed opinion for myself.
It's kind of a cop out answer to be completely honest, because we don't have the talent to execute what McMahon is trying to run, but I also think that's a bit on him for not putting his players in a better position to succeed.
I think a flex offense, something like Bruce Pearl has ran or Fred Hoiberg ran, an offense that focuses on ball movement, off ball screening, options and counters, just generally easier shots, would be better with this group.
I myself honestly kept going back and forth, so I really wanted to try and make a well informed opinion for myself.
It's kind of a cop out answer to be completely honest, because we don't have the talent to execute what McMahon is trying to run, but I also think that's a bit on him for not putting his players in a better position to succeed.
I think a flex offense, something like Bruce Pearl has ran or Fred Hoiberg ran, an offense that focuses on ball movement, off ball screening, options and counters, just generally easier shots, would be better with this group.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 11:35 am to CP3forMVP
Talent issue.
/ thread
/ thread
Posted on 1/27/23 at 11:35 am to CP3forMVP
You’re right, but it’s pretty damn hard to just teach a completely different offense and be successful at it. On top of that, if you’re trying to build a program and want to run what you think will be successful, you have to teach it and take your lumps.
It would be like an air raid coach with mostly RBs and TEs trying to teach a power run game because his team is better suited for that. Will that help long term?
It would be like an air raid coach with mostly RBs and TEs trying to teach a power run game because his team is better suited for that. Will that help long term?
Posted on 1/27/23 at 11:41 am to LSUButt
quote:
You’re right, but it’s pretty damn hard to just teach a completely different offense and be successful at it. On top of that, if you’re trying to build a program and want to run what you think will be successful, you have to teach it and take your lumps.
I agree with you 1000%
Those are two questions I’ve been trying to figure out as well.
Should have McMahon seen it coming? Completely possible he did or didn’t. Should he have implemented a different offense regardless, even knowing this is the offense he wants to run? I can see two sides of that coin as well.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 11:44 am to CP3forMVP
quote:
because we don't have the talent to execute what McMahon is trying to run, but I also think that's a bit on him for not putting his players in a better position to succeed.
I'm guessing because he basically has the backing of the AD for a rebuild and he doesn't need to "win now" that he'd rather install his system and get guys reps vs. run something else and win an extra 4 games or just be more competitive, which really nets him nothing. There is also the option that he is just being stubborn and/or underestimated how bad it would be. This is also probably the deepest SEC in a decade plus.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 11:50 am to Lester Earl
quote:
Talent issue.
We have Transfer Portal leftovers in a brand new team trying to figure it out. Turnovers kill our defense. It's a let down every time we give the ball back.
/thread, again
Posted on 1/27/23 at 11:52 am to barry
quote:
I'm guessing because he basically has the backing of the AD for a rebuild
Which kind of makes the debate over if he doesn’t win next year he should be gone even more silly. He got an 8 year deal for a reason
Posted on 1/27/23 at 11:56 am to CP3forMVP
Team can’t make open, wide open shots, even layups.
No offense, no offensive system works when you can’t make shots.
No offense, no offensive system works when you can’t make shots.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 11:56 am to BilbeauTBaggins
quote:
Transfer Portal leftovers i
You said it brether
Talent is the issue
People are shocked the 3rd PG at North Carolina St or the 4th PF on miss St’s roster can’t win games at an SEC school
This post was edited on 1/27/23 at 12:47 pm
Posted on 1/27/23 at 11:56 am to CP3forMVP
definitely agree with all of that
Posted on 1/27/23 at 11:58 am to CP3forMVP
Good video breakdown. I think mcmahon is showing his inexperience with offensive adversity in his inability to adjust what he knows. The guy ran the same offense at Murray state for 7 years and never really had to change it up bc he had success with it. I think this year is a good learning experience for him and his coaching staff to learn how to adjust an offense for the players you have rather than vice versa. I do believe once he gets players in that he feels fits the system better the product on the floor will be much improved
Posted on 1/27/23 at 12:01 pm to CP3forMVP
Nice video on the 1-4 offense. But LSU's problem is that they only have 2 scorers that play regularly in KJ and Miller, and Miller has been off in many games this year.
They went 3 for 25 (or something like that) in the first half against Arky. Sorry, that is just bad shooting.
They went 3 for 25 (or something like that) in the first half against Arky. Sorry, that is just bad shooting.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 12:11 pm to CP3forMVP
quote:
It's kind of a cop out answer to be completely honest, because we don't have the talent to execute what McMahon is trying to run, but I also think that's a bit on him for not putting his players in a better position to succeed.
That's not a cop out IMHO it's the reality...it's some of both. The talent is lacking but IMHO the degree to which it is has been greatly exaggerated here and compounded by various coaching factors like roster management, player development, motivation, etc. that have made it look worse than it is specifically since the Kentucky game.
As for as offense - whatever the offense is - it's much better when the players believe in it.
This post was edited on 1/27/23 at 12:13 pm
Posted on 1/27/23 at 12:11 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Talent issue.
/ thread
There are many teams with "less talent" that can still be efficient offensively...IF they run the best offensive approach to fit the skill set. Wade ran into that last season when he didn't have guys with enough strengths to run the same offensive style/approach he did in the years prior. The result? LSU's worst offense under him. Conversely, he did have guys who excelled in his defensive approach that didn't really work in the years prior.
Good coaches figure out the approach that maximizes the strengths of their rosters. Average to bad coaches keep banging their heads against the wall with the same approach hoping for different results, then saying they just don't have good enough guys to execute. In the 17-18 season Duke had as much talent as anyone in college basketball. Yet, they were struggling a bit culminating with a loss to a bad St. John's team. So what did Coach K do? Keep trying to fit a square peg in a round hole defensively? No, he did something he rarely did in 38 years as a HC. He went almost exclusively to a zone defense. It wasn't his preferred approach, but it worked that season...taking Duke from sub-50 defensive team to a top 10 unit and the Elite 8.
Different sport, but how many times during the Les Miles era did less talented teams beat LSU because their coaches were willing to tailor an approach that maximized their players' strengths while Miles continued to stubbornly refuse to change his approach with a more talented team?
LSU's offense is the worst in the SEC right now and they are getting smoked. Insanity would be continuing with the same approach and expecting different results.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 12:27 pm to CP3forMVP
quote:
think a flex offense, something like Bruce Pearl has ran or Fred Hoiberg ran, an offense that focuses on ball movement, off ball screening, options and counters, just generally easier shots, would be better with this group.
Maybe so, then again it comes back to talent. We have one guy (Miller) who can get open for a shot. Early in the season you’d see him get good looks off of pindowns from that 1-4 look you mentioned. Now teams are wise to this and are also taking away the pick and pop game with KJ. Not to mention that same one guy who can actually get open is in a horrible shooting slump. Our big guys have no idea how to run the floor. No one runs to the rim so our transition game is non existent. I’d definitely try and extend the defense a little bit to try and force turnovers. I don’t think that’s something he really does tho.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 12:31 pm to Alt26
quote:
There are many teams with "less talent" that can still be efficient offensively...IF they run the best offensive approach to fit the skill set.
This team is void of the basic player skillset needed for a decent offense. No shot creators, no shooters, bad rebounding. This isn’t the horizon league. You cannot out coach that. You need horses. The top SEC teams have multiple nba players on them.
This post was edited on 1/27/23 at 12:48 pm
Posted on 1/27/23 at 12:39 pm to Alt26
You guys keep comparing WW and MM. They are different styles. Just think about Coach O and Coach Kelly.
Posted on 1/27/23 at 1:13 pm to S
quote:
Our big guys have no idea how to run the floor. No one runs to the rim so our transition game is non existent.
I should have touched on it a little more in the video rather than just detailing the offense itself, but it's interesting of how lost they look offensively. Honestly while I said earlier I think they'd be better off something like a flex offense, now that I think about it they can't really even run what they're running now. Something that requires more read and react probably would go down in flames as well.
It's mind boggling how often you see guys having to tell other guys where to go, what to do, etc.
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