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re: Why Can't Today's DCs Adapt to the New Offenses?
Posted on 12/22/20 at 6:20 pm to The Pirate King
Posted on 12/22/20 at 6:20 pm to The Pirate King
quote:
The rules favor offenses mostly.
And you can add the explosion of 7 on 7 camps. Nowadays I think every high school in America has a 7 on 7 team.
0
Posted on 12/22/20 at 6:44 pm to The Pirate King
quote:
The rules favor offenses mostly.
This, you can’t hit a guy high, can’t hit low. Qb can throw it away outside tackle box, you can’t grab the shoulder pads, can’t make a come back block.
Every penalty is an automatic first down.
Posted on 12/22/20 at 6:46 pm to AlwysATgr
Rules are offense friendly, the new offenses just exploit that.
Posted on 12/22/20 at 7:54 pm to AlwysATgr
Ask the big 12 when we were laughing at them.
CHAVIS was actually good at defending them. He was horrible with the power rush offenses. This means the Drunk would still smash a whiskey dick up his chief hole.
CHAVIS was actually good at defending them. He was horrible with the power rush offenses. This means the Drunk would still smash a whiskey dick up his chief hole.
Posted on 12/22/20 at 7:57 pm to Madking
quote:he has ALWAYS done that. That is absolutely nothing new with him. Fail
The most obvious change was leaving his top corner on an island vs the 2nd WR instead of the #1 guy then running all his traps and doubles towards the #1 WR. The idea is that you can’t really stop the elite players the way people used to but if you can take away everyone else you can narrow your plan and mitigate the damage.
Posted on 12/22/20 at 7:59 pm to AlwysATgr
quote:Mostly the screen plays that are allowed. Should be outlawed as a wide receiver has no reason to screen off a defender except by design.
Why Can't Today's DCs Adapt to the New Offenses?
The only way to defend it is to back off and switch, but that gives the wr a nice 5-10 yard cushion on the underneath route.
Posted on 12/22/20 at 8:09 pm to BatonrougeCajun
That’s what people will have to keep in mind with the next DC. The days of giving up only 250-300 yards and only 17 points/game are virtually over. It will happen on occasion but it’s an outlier, not the norm anymore. You obviously don’t want what Pelini put on the field though. Hopefully the incoming DC can be way better.
Posted on 12/22/20 at 8:16 pm to Tiger1988
Wrong, he started doing it around 2015 and I said it’s the most obvious thing to point out not all of it. It was a response to another smartass post from a dumbass kinda like yours.
This post was edited on 12/22/20 at 8:31 pm
Posted on 12/22/20 at 8:22 pm to AlwysATgr
1. EYES & READS
The idea of reads is the 2nd of that 3 part process: where will it be. Run blocking on a pass play is just eye candy, effective eye candy, but eye candy nonetheless. It messes up the reads which is the defenses primary, above all others, tactic to finding the ball and preventing it from being advanced. So while not really rule "changes", it's another tool offenses use to cause defenses to not be at the right place at the right time.
2. TIME (not 'space')
We think of offenses looking for and attacking space. While that is true in effect, what they are really doing is stealing time. The Ricks pick-6 is a very good example. If he was 2 ft. further away but the pass was slower, he still makes the play. If he was same distance away but the pass was earlier/faster, he doesn't. The controlling factor was time. If a S is 10 ft from a WR when pass is thrown... are they running towards each other? In phase/parallel? That 10' changes with time.
Why is this important? Because there's a shortcut, or loophole... think of it as a football wormhole... And that's the concept of "leverage". Which is, in this context, is mostly about angles and position. Not space. If Jefferson gets inside a nickel on a quick slant because that nickel took outside leverage and finds himself between the nickel and Burrow, it doesn't matter if that nickel is 5 ft. behind JJ or 5 milimeters. Space no longer mattered. Time only mattered in the sense the pass needed to arrive before that leverage/position could be erased by defensive reaction. So now we're talking about time(ing). Still a function of time. But leverage allowed you to "steal" it without having to worry about distance and speed.
If it was ONLY about space, and not time, spread formations (literally "spread") would always work better than any "tight" package (like 10 personnel-bunch). But that is simply not true, see LSU circa 2019.
So to answer the question.... a little more background first. Back in the day a Tim Brown or Wendell Davis would have to beat the defender to catch a pass. They needed separation or to out fight the CB for that ball.
DC's are still fighting that battle in a sense. They know they need to defend space and the only real way they have to do that is to attack/defend the people in that space. That's what gap control is. That's what Bo's pattern matching zone is. Defend a space by attacking the people in that space.
It doesn't defend against leverage which short-circuits time which defines space. Don't blame them, they can't. The best you can hope for is to steal your own time (e.g. pressure on QB- if they have less time you "stole" it) or if they misuse their time be in the right position to take advantage of that (e.g. Rick's pick 6 since they threw it too late based on leverage).
quote:Rules are a factor, but the 3 yd rule for OL has been around awhile. It's how the rule/limitations are being used (RPO is the best example). But this isn't new either. Even in the 1920's with the Golden Domer's 4 Horsemen through Nebraska's dominant option offenses teams have been using motion and eye candy way more than a Canada or Malzahn could ever dream of. So since time immemorial defenses have had one basic goal: where is the ball now, where will it be, and how to tackle the guy with it.
But I don't think personnel explains it. There has always been personnel advantages. I think the rules are a factor.
The idea of reads is the 2nd of that 3 part process: where will it be. Run blocking on a pass play is just eye candy, effective eye candy, but eye candy nonetheless. It messes up the reads which is the defenses primary, above all others, tactic to finding the ball and preventing it from being advanced. So while not really rule "changes", it's another tool offenses use to cause defenses to not be at the right place at the right time.
2. TIME (not 'space')
quote:
I also think that most of the older school DCs are using conventional approaches while the offenses have become very unconventional.
We think of offenses looking for and attacking space. While that is true in effect, what they are really doing is stealing time. The Ricks pick-6 is a very good example. If he was 2 ft. further away but the pass was slower, he still makes the play. If he was same distance away but the pass was earlier/faster, he doesn't. The controlling factor was time. If a S is 10 ft from a WR when pass is thrown... are they running towards each other? In phase/parallel? That 10' changes with time.
Why is this important? Because there's a shortcut, or loophole... think of it as a football wormhole... And that's the concept of "leverage". Which is, in this context, is mostly about angles and position. Not space. If Jefferson gets inside a nickel on a quick slant because that nickel took outside leverage and finds himself between the nickel and Burrow, it doesn't matter if that nickel is 5 ft. behind JJ or 5 milimeters. Space no longer mattered. Time only mattered in the sense the pass needed to arrive before that leverage/position could be erased by defensive reaction. So now we're talking about time(ing). Still a function of time. But leverage allowed you to "steal" it without having to worry about distance and speed.
If it was ONLY about space, and not time, spread formations (literally "spread") would always work better than any "tight" package (like 10 personnel-bunch). But that is simply not true, see LSU circa 2019.
So to answer the question.... a little more background first. Back in the day a Tim Brown or Wendell Davis would have to beat the defender to catch a pass. They needed separation or to out fight the CB for that ball.
DC's are still fighting that battle in a sense. They know they need to defend space and the only real way they have to do that is to attack/defend the people in that space. That's what gap control is. That's what Bo's pattern matching zone is. Defend a space by attacking the people in that space.
It doesn't defend against leverage which short-circuits time which defines space. Don't blame them, they can't. The best you can hope for is to steal your own time (e.g. pressure on QB- if they have less time you "stole" it) or if they misuse their time be in the right position to take advantage of that (e.g. Rick's pick 6 since they threw it too late based on leverage).
Posted on 12/22/20 at 8:24 pm to AlwysATgr
I think you meant why can’t yesterday’s DCs adapt to the new offenses. Ask Bo
Posted on 12/22/20 at 8:41 pm to I20goon
If the QB and WRs are both adept enough to spot change routes on the fly, there’s not much a defense can do other than disrupt the timing with a great pass rush. Last year when Burrow had Jefferson, Chase, and Marshall (as well as Clyde and Moss), both the QB and WRs were able to sight change routes based on what the defense presented. As long as the QB and the WR are on the same page, it’s nearly impossible to defend. Clemson was able to disrupt some of this early in the game by waiting til the last second to change their defense and confuse our players causing us to have issues and get delay of the game penalties (which had not happened all year). Eventually we figured out what they were doing and isolated Chase on their corner and the rest is history.
Long story short, getting a pass rush with as few people as possible I.E. Auburn vs LSU last year is the best way to stop modern offenses (as long as you can stop the run).
Long story short, getting a pass rush with as few people as possible I.E. Auburn vs LSU last year is the best way to stop modern offenses (as long as you can stop the run).
Posted on 12/22/20 at 8:44 pm to AlwysATgr
quote:
Why Can't Today's DCs Adapt to the New Offenses
quote:
Has any one figured it out?
Yes.
The answer is in your query.
Posted on 12/23/20 at 6:09 am to Madking
quote:. You made it sound like he just started that shite. He has always played matching games. Go back to 2003 when he had a receiver playing corner to stop the Ravens.
Wrong, he started doing it around 2015 and I said it’s the most obvious thing to point out not all of it. It was a response to another smartass post from a dumbass kinda like yours.
What you’re talking about is cover 1 to take away the middle of the field. That is where most teams attack and he has adjusted his LBs and DBs to have better coverage. Whatever SB Butler picked off Wilson, he played that same #1 corner on their #2 receiver. It isn’t “new” like you’ve made it out to the OP.
Posted on 12/23/20 at 6:22 am to AlwysATgr
quote:
AlwysATgr
Why Can't Today's DCs Adapt to the New Offenses?
Has any one figured it out?
Teams with dominate defensive lines do tend to control the line of scrimmage and put pressure on QB. Stopping the run and putting pressure on QB is the answer.
Of course you have to have good coverage and a good offensive.
My opinion the teams that dominate this day and age control the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball.
Posted on 12/23/20 at 6:23 am to AlwysATgr
Two things:
1) The rules favor the offense.
2) It’s hard to play good defense.
Playing good defense against the wide open spread offenses with the kind of athletes you see today is just really fricking hard. You are going to give up points here and there.
ETA: But, one fact will always remain: the game is won in the trenches. The problem is good DL is hard to develop. It’s one of the harder positions to develop.
1) The rules favor the offense.
2) It’s hard to play good defense.
Playing good defense against the wide open spread offenses with the kind of athletes you see today is just really fricking hard. You are going to give up points here and there.
ETA: But, one fact will always remain: the game is won in the trenches. The problem is good DL is hard to develop. It’s one of the harder positions to develop.
This post was edited on 12/23/20 at 6:25 am
Posted on 12/23/20 at 7:21 am to AlwysATgr
The continued development of the RPO puts the D at a disadvantage. The skill set of the skill positions continues to grow, with size, speed and athleticism. You do not see to many 6’5” DBs.
WRs in a pattern go to a point, read the D & adjust the route. With a good OL, lmoat impossible to stop consistently.
Imo, the base 3-4 is a better D against the current offenses.
WRs in a pattern go to a point, read the D & adjust the route. With a good OL, lmoat impossible to stop consistently.
Imo, the base 3-4 is a better D against the current offenses.
Posted on 12/23/20 at 7:45 am to AlwysATgr
Rules changes. The RPO and allowing linemen to go 5 yards downfield. How do you know if it’s a run or a pass if linemen can go downfield? Receivers aren’t scared to go across the middle because safeties won’t hit anymore due to targeting.
Every rule change in the past 10 years favors the offense.
It’s here to stay. The game has changed.
Every rule change in the past 10 years favors the offense.
It’s here to stay. The game has changed.
Posted on 12/23/20 at 7:54 am to Tiger1988
Wow, you’re not only wrong about what I said, you have no clue what you’re even talking about. He used Troy Brown at corner sometimes and he did it because of injuries and attrition. It had nothing to do with matchups and surely has nothing to do with what I said. You’re a moron.
This post was edited on 12/23/20 at 7:59 am
Posted on 12/23/20 at 7:56 am to AlwysATgr
Imo that’s why we need a dc that can run multiple schemes
Posted on 12/23/20 at 7:57 am to AlwysATgr
Cops and robbers.
Robbers know what they are going To do. Cops have to figure it out.
Robbers know what they are going To do. Cops have to figure it out.
This post was edited on 12/23/20 at 8:00 am
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