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re: Time to choose a side 8n the only debate that matters...not Rep/Dem or MJ/LeBron
Posted on 5/9/18 at 8:31 am to Rep520
Posted on 5/9/18 at 8:31 am to Rep520
quote:
If you can find the Nuckols article let me know. Like J said, always interested in more info and Nuckols is a smart guy.
I can't link the actual article since it's his paid service but I'll show the main points. It's from his lastest issue of MASS.
quote:
KEY POINTS
1. In both this study and a previous study using the same design, deep squats led to greater peak knee joint moments than half squats, even when using the same relative load (i.e. heavier weights for the half squat).
2. Peak knee joint moments are associated with patellofemoral joint stress; half squats had lower peak knee joint moments than full squats, and peak knee joint moments comparable to parallel squats, suggesting half squats are probably not as risky for knee health as many people claim.
3. At the end of the day, all squat depths should be safe, assuming you have healthy knees. Base your squat form on your training goals and personal comfort, not on unfounded alarmism.
Here is the actual study he reviewed: LINK
This post was edited on 5/9/18 at 8:33 am
1
Posted on 5/9/18 at 9:39 am to AlxTgr
quote:
How does one even get hurt doing cleans?
High acceleration. Large movement for center of mass.... recipe for injury
Posted on 5/9/18 at 10:03 am to AlxTgr
quote:
Ridiculous? I understand you disagree, but it's absolutely not ridiculous
Yeah it pretty much is. You created an arbitrary age where you are really in your athletic prime to stop an exercise that strengthens one of the most important muscle groups in your body.
Posted on 5/9/18 at 10:20 am to marchballer
Thanks. My counter to that would be the extrapolation from peak knee extensor moments to increased patellar stress.
Peak knee extensor moments only refers to angle of the joint. I'd agree full squats do demand increased knee travel and a correlating change in knee angle.
That said, I'm not sold that the actual peak of the patellar stress in a full squat is the bottom position. A squat is hardest when you're reversing the load, i.e., stopping the descent and reversing into the concentric portion.
The real question is whether the amount of patellar stress in that reversal is higher in the full squat vs half squat bottom position, given the change in load possible.
Nuckols seems to use the general proposition that greater flexion equals higher stress. I don't disagree in general. I would say that in general, I'd be more concerned about peak stress vs accumulation of stress in injuries.
Basically, I don't doubt that increased knee ROM correlates to greater overall patellar stress. I would say that doesn't necessarily mean greater peak stress in the eccentric/concentric reversal point, and that peak stress seems like it would be more determinative of actuall patellar injury.
I do think there are significant other factors to discourage half squatting for recreational lifters beyond just patellar stress, though.
Peak knee extensor moments only refers to angle of the joint. I'd agree full squats do demand increased knee travel and a correlating change in knee angle.
That said, I'm not sold that the actual peak of the patellar stress in a full squat is the bottom position. A squat is hardest when you're reversing the load, i.e., stopping the descent and reversing into the concentric portion.
The real question is whether the amount of patellar stress in that reversal is higher in the full squat vs half squat bottom position, given the change in load possible.
Nuckols seems to use the general proposition that greater flexion equals higher stress. I don't disagree in general. I would say that in general, I'd be more concerned about peak stress vs accumulation of stress in injuries.
Basically, I don't doubt that increased knee ROM correlates to greater overall patellar stress. I would say that doesn't necessarily mean greater peak stress in the eccentric/concentric reversal point, and that peak stress seems like it would be more determinative of actuall patellar injury.
I do think there are significant other factors to discourage half squatting for recreational lifters beyond just patellar stress, though.
Posted on 5/9/18 at 10:27 am to AlxTgr
quote:
Ridiculous? I understand you disagree, but it's absolutely not ridiculous.
It's been proven time and time again that, when done with proper form, is an extremely effective overall strength gaining exercise.
I didn't start deadlifting until the cutoff age you're suggesting, and wasn't serious about it for a good while. Now at 38, my last max was 550lbs with strength left in the tank.
No single lift has done more to help my other lifts (and body goals) as much as the deadlift. Calling it a dangerous lift bc some people don't learn how to use it properly is a like suggesting we quit driving bc some people get in wrecks.
ETA: I have a deadlifting injury I'm currently fighting due to a poor decision I made. Torn bicep from using mixed grip.
This post was edited on 5/9/18 at 10:29 am
Posted on 5/9/18 at 12:13 pm to bayourougebengal
quote:
Torn bicep from using mixed grip.
I thought mixed grip was how everyone did deadlifts. One hand facing opposite the other, right?
Posted on 5/9/18 at 12:18 pm to DeafJam73
You can do hook grip also
Posted on 5/9/18 at 12:20 pm to Hu_Flung_Pu
my hook grip is getting better.
still not at max pull, but 80% of the way there.
still not at max pull, but 80% of the way there.
Posted on 5/9/18 at 12:21 pm to DeafJam73
quote:
I thought mixed grip was how everyone did deadlifts. One hand facing opposite the other, right?
I've always used double overhand until my heavy sets and then used either mixed or hook grip. That day I was using mixed grip and the underhand arm is the one that tore.
This post was edited on 5/9/18 at 2:59 pm
Posted on 5/9/18 at 12:47 pm to bayourougebengal
im honestly about to start using straps again.
I dont compete so at the high end 250 kg+ it wont hurt my grip strength, and less chance of injury which is all I care about.
THE BEST ABILITY?
AVAILABILITY
I dont compete so at the high end 250 kg+ it wont hurt my grip strength, and less chance of injury which is all I care about.
THE BEST ABILITY?
AVAILABILITY
Posted on 5/9/18 at 1:05 pm to CptBengal
I've started using straps on most of my DL movements. I do heavy farmers walks, so I'm confident my grip will be there if I need it. Straps let you minimize the day to day wear and tear.
Posted on 5/9/18 at 1:16 pm to CptBengal
I'll be able to start doing deads again soon and I bought some figure 8 straps on Amazon that feel great. Gonna use them on any significant weight. 5/20 makes me 3 months post-op.
Posted on 5/9/18 at 1:17 pm to CptBengal
quote:
250 kg+
Second time you did this in this thread. Making me use conversions to figure your lifts out
Posted on 5/9/18 at 1:43 pm to bayourougebengal
quote:
hook grip and the underhand arm is the one that tore.
You mean mixed?
Posted on 5/9/18 at 1:48 pm to CptBengal
quote:
hook grip is getting better.
Is it just slipping? I think I just have the hands for it and the grip strength. I never really had to work on it. Are you chalking the top of your thumb and digging into the web of your hand first and rotating into the grip?
Posted on 5/9/18 at 2:37 pm to bayourougebengal
quote:
I've always used double overhand until my heavy sets and then used either mixed or hook grip. That day I was using hook grip and the underhand arm is the one that tore.
That sucks. Sorry to hear that. I would probably cry. Not from the pain necessarily, but from being out for recovery.
Posted on 5/9/18 at 2:39 pm to Rep520
I use straps on my AMRAP sets. I hate having to think about grip when I’m trying to beat a rep PR.
This post was edited on 5/9/18 at 2:40 pm
Posted on 5/9/18 at 2:59 pm to Hu_Flung_Pu
quote:
You mean mixed?
Yes thank you
Posted on 5/9/18 at 3:04 pm to DeafJam73
quote:
That sucks. Sorry to hear that. I would probably cry. Not from the pain necessarily, but from being out for recovery.
No pain but mentally it was pretty depressing at first. I never quit squatting and doing the things I was able to do. I even squatted in the Smith machine until I got the sling off just to keep myself working. Started benching again sometime in April.
Posted on 5/9/18 at 3:59 pm to bayourougebengal
Pretty fast turn around. Nice.
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