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re: The ATL Thread: Offseason
Posted on 10/20/20 at 6:40 am to rebel of fortune
Posted on 10/20/20 at 6:40 am to rebel of fortune
quote:
The Rockies would take anything to get rid of Arenado’s contract. It would be the Stanton trade all over again.Waters is a corner OF that has yet to hit for power with a high strikeout and a low walk rate. Waters could be another Riley but without power.
Arenado's deal isn't anything close to Stanton's, so they would certainly expect more prospect capital in return.
Waters is a PLUS corner outfielder who would be most teams' CF. And you're complaining about his perceived lack of power, while ignoring that he's hit more homers than Pache. And lest you forget, there's more to being productive than just hitting homers. Waters hit about 40 doubles last year. Pache didn't come close to that. Most expect that a lot of Waters' doubles will turn into home runs in the future as he gains strength. And it is also worth noting that the Braves Double-A ballpark, where he and Pache spent most of last year, is extremely cavernous.
And, again, he and Pache have had very similar walk and strikeout rates in their careers. Waters can steal bases. Pache is terrible at that. I'm just having a hard time figuring out where you believe Waters is so expendable and Pache is not.
The only real reason Pache made it to the big leagues first is because of the stupid covid crap, and they could only carry so many players in their training bubble. With Pache's defense being big league ready, they picked him over Waters to put in the bubble. It wasn't because he was a superior offensive threat. They both have tons of talent, and some holes to fix. But at present time, Waters provides much more offensive potential, having hit about .340 with 40 doubles, to go with his 9 or so homers last year.
This post was edited on 10/20/20 at 6:42 am
2
Posted on 10/20/20 at 6:41 am to CaptSpaulding
quote:
universal DH
When will this decision be made?
Posted on 10/20/20 at 9:09 am to Metaloctopus
I agree with you about Waters
I think he’s on the same level as Pache as a prospect. I don’t really understand why Pache is regarded higher than Waters except I guess because of his defense which seems to be legit
I would not want them to move Waters just yet. I’m excited to see what he and Pache both can become
I think he’s on the same level as Pache as a prospect. I don’t really understand why Pache is regarded higher than Waters except I guess because of his defense which seems to be legit
I would not want them to move Waters just yet. I’m excited to see what he and Pache both can become
Posted on 10/20/20 at 9:19 am to Metaloctopus
Waters and Pache do not really have similar approaches. Pache Ks because he has so much swing and miss in his game (18% swing and miss in 2019). Approach is fine and the chase rate is around average but the bat to ball skills still have some room to grow. The walk rate has been going up and he showed pretty good strike zone command at the alternate site and we saw some really good pitch recognition from him in the NLCS.
Waters is an elite bat to ball guy, superstar potential from the left side as a pure hitter, but the approach is really tough to watch. Just a pure hacker. If he had a refined approach he would probably be a top 5 overall prospect. He is a good defender in the corner but probably a tick below average in CF.
Pache was actually faster than Waters in 2019 when they played together in Mississippi and Gwinnett but Pache has put on some muscle since then. Waters is a much more instinctual baserunner, another area where Pache needs to improve.
A guy like Pache who I think has the better approach and more power potential with generational CF defense is always going to be the preference for me over a corner OF or averagish CF with questions about power and huge approach issues.
Waters is an elite bat to ball guy, superstar potential from the left side as a pure hitter, but the approach is really tough to watch. Just a pure hacker. If he had a refined approach he would probably be a top 5 overall prospect. He is a good defender in the corner but probably a tick below average in CF.
Pache was actually faster than Waters in 2019 when they played together in Mississippi and Gwinnett but Pache has put on some muscle since then. Waters is a much more instinctual baserunner, another area where Pache needs to improve.
A guy like Pache who I think has the better approach and more power potential with generational CF defense is always going to be the preference for me over a corner OF or averagish CF with questions about power and huge approach issues.
Posted on 10/20/20 at 10:01 am to volfan30
This thread is on page 10 and I’m still salty as frick over last weekend
Posted on 10/20/20 at 10:02 am to volfan30
I watched Pache and Waters at AA. Waters had the more productive first half of the season at Mississippi.
Pache is just more physically impressive. If you told me that both were going to be opening day starters for 2021, it wouldn’t bother me at all.
Pache is just more physically impressive. If you told me that both were going to be opening day starters for 2021, it wouldn’t bother me at all.
Posted on 10/20/20 at 10:04 am to volfan30
Strikeouts seem to be a major concern with Waters. How can we assume that can be corrected against MLB pitching? I would think if he does K so much, he’d also hit for more power than he does...
Posted on 10/20/20 at 10:21 am to volfan30
quote:
Waters and Pache do not really have similar approaches. Pache Ks because he has so much swing and miss in his game (18% swing and miss in 2019). Approach is fine and the chase rate is around average but the bat to ball skills still have some room to grow. The walk rate has been going up and he showed pretty good strike zone command at the alternate site and we saw some really good pitch recognition from him in the NLCS.
I was encouraged by some of what I saw from Pache, in terms of pitch recognition in the NLCS, but it was a very small sample size, and we'll have to see how he adjusts to seeing more breaking balls than he saw in that series.
quote:
Waters is an elite bat to ball guy, superstar potential from the left side as a pure hitter, but the approach is really tough to watch. Just a pure hacker. If he had a refined approach he would probably be a top 5 overall prospect. He is a good defender in the corner but probably a tick below average in CF.
Vlad Guerrero was a pure hacker. Before you machine gun that last statement as being an unfair comp, I'm just reminding you that if a guy has elite bat to ball skills, he can afford to be a hacker. I'm not saying it's the "right" approach. I'd love to see him walk more, and I saw an interview with him during the off season where he said he was working hard on slowing himself down and seeing more pitches. He wasn't in the bubble, so we don't have any reports on his progress. Defensively, he's got the ability to be an elite corner outfielder, and he'd be in left with Pache and Acuna out there, so he'd play up even more out there.
quote:
Pache was actually faster than Waters in 2019 when they played together in Mississippi and Gwinnett but Pache has put on some muscle since then. Waters is a much more instinctual baserunner, another area where Pache needs to improve.
Yeah, I've always read about how fast Pache was, but in the NLCS, he didn't look very fast at all. There were multiple ground balls he hit slowly where I thought he had a shot to beat it out, based on the speed I've heard about, that he was out by a mile. That was disappointing. But Waters has always been a superior base runner. Speed won't do much good if you can't read the pitchers and get good jumps. So yeah, Pache needs to improve there, I agree.
quote:
A guy like Pache who I think has the better approach and more power potential with generational CF defense is always going to be the preference for me over a corner OF or averagish CF with questions about power and huge approach issues.
Again, better approach, but not better hitter. I'm not sure how Pache comes out ahead there. And I don't agree that he has more power potential. I think they are about even in potential as far as power goes, but Waters has tapped into his more already, and he does a better job of consistently peppering the gap. Pache's natural swing leads to a lot of balls being hit up the middle, and he hits a lot of ground balls, in general. Maybe that's because he's waiting longer to swing, trying to recognize the pitch, and jamming himself.
We're all enamored with Pache possibly being the next Andruw Jones, defensively, but we've had a pretty good one in Inciarte for a few years. Pache's going to have to improve a lot with the bat, in order to not be the next great center fielder who can't hit enough to stay in the lineup.
Posted on 10/20/20 at 10:28 am to dhuck20
quote:
Strikeouts seem to be a major concern with Waters. How can we assume that can be corrected against MLB pitching? I would think if he does K so much, he’d also hit for more power than he does..
Eh, like I said earlier, 9 homers last year (I believe) and about 40 doubles, in a cavernous ballpark, at 20 years old. I think his power is fine. he's just very aggressive. I think he's Dansby Swanson, at worst, with the bat at the big league level. The walks will come up enough, and he's a far advanced hitter than what Swanson was at that age. I anticipate some bumps for him, just like Pache will have, and Swanson had, and most guys have.
Posted on 10/20/20 at 10:34 am to dhuck20
As a hitter Waters actually reminds me a lot of Ozzie. Gap to gap hitter who should gain more HR power when he gets to the big leagues. Really advanced bat to ball skills from one side (right side for Ozzie and left side for Waters) and significantly weaker from the other side (but Waters is even worse right handed than Ozzie left handed). It’s obviously better for right handed to be your weak side though which is a plus for Waters.
Approach is similar in that both guys are swinging from the first pitch and don’t take many walks, but Waters strikes out at a higher rate in the minors which is concerning. Albies also was known to be an elite defender at a premium position (could easily play a + SS in the big leagues) while Waters bat will need to play up more if he is playing a corner OF spot.
Approach is similar in that both guys are swinging from the first pitch and don’t take many walks, but Waters strikes out at a higher rate in the minors which is concerning. Albies also was known to be an elite defender at a premium position (could easily play a + SS in the big leagues) while Waters bat will need to play up more if he is playing a corner OF spot.
Posted on 10/20/20 at 12:11 pm to volfan30
Soroka is ahead of schedule and is on track for Opening Day.
quote:
Soroka (Achilles) is expected to be ready to throw by the time spring training begins, David O'Brien of The Athletic reports.
Soroka pitched just three times this season before tearing his Achilles tendon, and injury which required surgery. He's hoping to be ready to go by Opening Day, though the Braves will be cautious with the 23-year-old and will be willing to have him miss a start or two in the
Posted on 10/20/20 at 12:32 pm to diddlydawg7
I am having a hard time getting over this loss. It was the one bright spot this year in having such a great team to watch. Then I keep hearing the coverage of the WS starting tonight and it burns.
Posted on 10/20/20 at 12:53 pm to flyAU
Marcell Ozuna basically wrote a goodbye letter today. Buck Belue just read it on the radio.
It would much more palatable if we had lost 4-1 and were clearly outclassed. Having three chances to close the series and go 0/3 leaves a really bitter taste in my mouth. They were a blast to watch all season but they'll always be remembered for their last 3 games, which sucks. It's similar to no one remembering how fun the 2016 Indians were or how good the 2004 Yankees were because of the way their seasons ended.
quote:
I am having a hard time getting over this loss. It was the one bright spot this year in having such a great team to watch. Then I keep hearing the coverage of the WS starting tonight and it burns.
It would much more palatable if we had lost 4-1 and were clearly outclassed. Having three chances to close the series and go 0/3 leaves a really bitter taste in my mouth. They were a blast to watch all season but they'll always be remembered for their last 3 games, which sucks. It's similar to no one remembering how fun the 2016 Indians were or how good the 2004 Yankees were because of the way their seasons ended.
Posted on 10/20/20 at 1:12 pm to VADawg
quote:
Marcell Ozuna basically wrote a goodbye letter today.
Already posted on the last page.
We're reading way too much into that. Ozuna may not re-sign here, but he doesn't know if that will be the case yet.
Posted on 10/20/20 at 7:11 pm to Broski
We should be starting a Game 1 ATL Thread right now 
Posted on 10/20/20 at 7:14 pm to Broski
Yep. But the Dodgers proved they are the better team. I’m glad to finally watch them play someone I don’t care about.
Posted on 10/20/20 at 9:37 pm to Broski
I’m going to be so rolled up when the Dodgers gsweep the Rays.
Good lord Barves
Good lord Barves
Posted on 10/20/20 at 11:26 pm to David Ricky
Yep Dodgers chased Glasnow after just a few. No way we don’t take that series. Probably in 5 or 6.
Posted on 10/21/20 at 1:40 am to dhuck20
quote:
“Marcell was amazing for us. He was awesome. I’d love to have him back," Anthopoulos said. "I certainly plan on having discussions. But just a day after we got back, there is uncertainty in so many areas. I’m not trying to be cryptic or to foreshadow. We’re going to have to work hard to get as many answers as we can from a revenue standpoint, a [designated hitter] standpoint, all of those things. But there’s no doubt he was tremendous for us. He fit in great, and we’d love to have him be a part of what we’re doing going forward.”
...welp
LINK
Posted on 10/21/20 at 3:28 am to Broski
I take it that Alex either knows the payroll will drop significantly or he doesn’t know what the payroll number is yet. I expect the Braves to wait out the free agent market and find guys wanting one year deals.
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