re: So what exactly is the main argument against universal healthcare

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above- they're definitely throwing money at FQRHC's in hopes of getting the rural docs of America on to the government teat. But they're not going to be able to dictate what the private man does.

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Directly? Nope. Indirectly? They already do. Private payers are already funding medicaid patients. Adding a “public option” isn’t going to slow that.

The government will pay the same ishtty reimbursements they do now for Medi. There is zero reason to reimburse at higher rates.

Their “customers” don’t care what those rates are. They just want the procedures for “free”.

That’s all the government needs to deliver. Then turn around and say “look how expensive private insurance is” when the cost gets shifted to private payers. The “customers” don’t even know how their reimbursement compare. Nor do they care. why would they?

“Customers” don’t pick their insurance based on what their plan pays doctors. They pick based on their own prices.

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I'm pretty confused by this question. Licensing is state by state. Taking insurance isn't going to be part of licensure.

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Not talking about private insurance. Talking about being forced to take Medi or “the public option”. There is nothing that prevents regulating/mandating this at the federal level. If they can make everyone buy a product they don’t want —there is no reason to think they can’t make physicians take patients they don’t want.

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And then they are never going to make the breast augmentation/facelift/derm promise to take Medicaid or any insurance just to obtain a license.

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One would expect Medicaid wouldn’t pay those as customary/necessary. But elective procedures aren’t that isn’t what we’re talking about.

You are correct though, I’d expect to see lots of docs switch form things GI, oncology, pedi, and the like to avoid being forced to take crappy reimbursements. Hell, we’re seeing some of that now.

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But if that happens, I'll work my arse off to FIRE and be sure frequently vocalize how stupid the board is in every possible public forum.

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You should start now. It’s much easier to protect your rights while you still have them instead of waiting until they are gone and expectations are set.

Physicians need to start caring about how and who pays them, or they will find themselves being paid like docs in socialized systems.

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I don't foresee them going to a national licensure that requires physicians to take their own, one, crappy option.

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Ah. I see. Not what i’m saying. i’m saying provides will be required to tak some %-age of “public” optionand/or medi patients. They need to keep private payers. Without them, the providers can’t survive. We see this now. if everyone got medicare rates, it’s over.

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If your argument is, "doctors will be forced to take this insurance and nothing else as a component of licensure," then elective procedures couldn't exist.

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Yup. You’re exactly right! But that’s a goal of a socialized systems. Remember... socialized systems optimize what’s “best” for “society”, not individual patients wealthy enough for elective procedures.

Look for example how Obamacare treats “cadillac’ plans.

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So they can still pay cash for them. Unless the government forbids physicians from taking cash as payment for their time...

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Was actually a feature of the original “Hillarycare”.

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Barring any major setbacks or "ramping up" of lifestyle, i could step out at any point in our early 40s with a handful of side, self-employed gigs.

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Most docs will be individually fine. It’s the people needing care that will be hurt when there is a lack of physicians...

Doctors are expensive because they are valuable. But you’ve seen it in this thread some believe doctors are overpaid and driving healthcare costs.

When i hear that i ask people what they think pediatricians get paid. most people answer in the mid to high six figures.

One of my AOC worshiping friends though her kids pediatrician made ”at least a million dollars a year”. This is what doctors are up against. It’s scary.

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Because I have a very hard time paying for some random persons free crap. That, and I have a very hard time with government telling people how long they would have to wait for surgery, treatments, etc. Add to that that I have a very hard time with anyone telling me / forcing me to pay for some random persons crap. So yeah, frick socialized medicine and anyone who actually falls for the notion that it’s better.

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This is all true, not to mention losing your choice of doctor! Talk to someone in a country that has socialized medicine- in Canada, they can't get enough doctors because of the pay, instead they become veterinarians! Ever wonder why Mick Jagger got his heart surgery in the U.S. instead of Great Britain? I am happy paying for my private insurance and also glad I have that choice- you would really have to be a fool to believe Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders knows what the hell they are doing, much less that they care! They think it all sounds good, but in typical progressive fashion, they cannot envision results that would amount to failure, their agenda will not look that far ahead...

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Several groups I have worked with in the past actually think a deemed nonemergency copay of as little as $5 would relieve a significant portion of this burden. But that won't happen, and no one suggests anything other than free-for-everything service. As someone who provides this service, I promise wait times will go up for everything because people overuse free care.

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Louisiana's charity hospital had a severe problem with Medicaid patients abusing the ER, as you can imagine. So the new Community Care Medicaid plan was implemented, which required patients to get referrals from their PCP for things, similar to private insurance companies. They had to have a gatekeeper to eliminate all the doctor-hoping by these patients. Anyway, they implemented a similar charge as what you proposed but I don't believe they ever forced the patient to pay the $5 or $10 at ER visit but some did pay. I can't remember what happened with it or if it's still in practice.

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Concierge medicine is booming right now.

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This is the way to go. And prevention is a huge component that needs to be tackled more.

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So what exactly is the main argument against universal healthcare

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I'll give you 2; healthcare ain't a right and Government run anything sucks arse

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Our current system is by far the costliest in the world and it is certainly not the best system.

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Find one country or system where implementation of "universal healthcare" has decreased costs within that population.

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Cost

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I've proven this argument is essentially garbage

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You haven't proven anything. But its overwhelmingly embarrassing for you, that you cant seem to grasp that

How is anything effected, when its "free"? Lets take college football games. Say the govt decides all games are free. Just show up at the gates on gameday, and you get in

Ya think all schools wouldn't start screaming for larger, taxpayer funded stadiums? And all colleges wouldn't be starting football programs to cash in?

How about costs of security? Say, like another branch of homeland security? How about those nice TV contracts? Ya think those things wont tank in this kind of market? So the govt would pick up the costs of uniforms, coaches salaries, transportation, etc? Also, maintenance costs, support personnel, and the eventuality of paying athletes plus their scholarships?

How much will the costs of football increase when its tax supported, as opposed to being pay to use?

Liberals like you just aren't very deep thinkers. You live by the mantra that if you want something, its somebody elses responsibility to get it to you

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That forcing higher taxes upon large segments of the population to pay for medical services for other people is not only immoral, but unconstitutional.

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But who says YOU or any other sector can't use those same services. We are all one tragedy away from bankruptcy.

"We all know how we are born but nobody knows how we will leave"

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And THIS proves how healthcare is a privilege & NOT a "right". Gov't doesn't force a right by indenturing someone else. A right is protected. It's shameful that many in this country do not know the difference.

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When your ideology's underlying premise is subjectivity, there are no rules to bound idiots from declaring anything a right.

I was listening to an NPR debate on M4A, and the two sides couldn't be more different in how they argue. It is simply an appeal to emotion to declare it a right, and the debator for the proposal explicitly stated his argument is emotionally driven. You're arguing against an idea with supply/demand market forces in mind, and on the idea that people shouldn't be entitled to other people's free labor, but it will never be enough to overcome the emotional appeal because 90% of the country don't care to understand the economic implications.