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Started By
Message
Pocket Pistols vs. Medium/Large Semi-autos
Posted on 10/29/18 at 2:48 pm
Posted on 10/29/18 at 2:48 pm
Haven't seen a discussion here on this lately, but have noticed an increased interest in pocket-size pistols during the past couple of years.
The author (not me) of the article linked below is a widely respected handgun and force-on-force trainer who lives/teaches over near Bastrop, Texas. IIRC he has a master's degree in engineering (I don't remember what discipline). He's a Master Class shooter in several IDPA classifications and is a Grand Master in two or three IPSC/USPSA divisions.
In other words he knows what he's talking about.
Karl's study Is a Pocket Pistol Enough Gun for Self Defense was published in the USCCA journal several years ago. It's pretty long, so here's the TL;DR conclusion of his study:
Conclusions
Is a pocket gun enough? Data analysis indicates that a five-shot .38 probably holds enough ammunition to handle 70 percent of all likely situations. In the hands of a “low skill” shooter (lacking training beyond the CHL level), the odds of getting acceptable hits are poor; that group averaged 57 percent on the test. When those two probabilities are multiplied to calculate total probability, the result is 40 percent, which isn’t great, but is better than 0 percent (no gun).
Training and skill, whether it’s acquired through practice with the pocket gun or a larger gun, dramatically increases the odds of getting acceptable hits from the low 60s to the mid 90s. Adding capacity to the pocket gun can also improve the odds, but adding capacity is not a substitute for developing skill. Three good hits are tactically and legally preferable to seven bad shots.
The best odds, regardless of skill level, come from carrying the primary, not the pocket, gun, since this overcomes both the capacity and the capability limitations of the pocket gun.
The best solution? Carry a medium or large sized handgun. Train and practice with it until you can shoot a passing score on the Three Seconds or Less drill. Carry that gun as often as you can.
Have a pocket gun, preferably one that holds six or more rounds. Train and practice with it until you can pass the test. Carry it in those situations when no other practical option exists.
Disclaimer: I've trained with Karl, have participated in one of his studies (not this one - the one comparing iron sights, laser sights and red dot sights), and have trained several times with one of the instructors he mentions in the article. So maybe I've drunk too much of the Kool-Aid ???
I'll just sit here and wait on some down-votes.
The author (not me) of the article linked below is a widely respected handgun and force-on-force trainer who lives/teaches over near Bastrop, Texas. IIRC he has a master's degree in engineering (I don't remember what discipline). He's a Master Class shooter in several IDPA classifications and is a Grand Master in two or three IPSC/USPSA divisions.
In other words he knows what he's talking about.
Karl's study Is a Pocket Pistol Enough Gun for Self Defense was published in the USCCA journal several years ago. It's pretty long, so here's the TL;DR conclusion of his study:
Conclusions
Is a pocket gun enough? Data analysis indicates that a five-shot .38 probably holds enough ammunition to handle 70 percent of all likely situations. In the hands of a “low skill” shooter (lacking training beyond the CHL level), the odds of getting acceptable hits are poor; that group averaged 57 percent on the test. When those two probabilities are multiplied to calculate total probability, the result is 40 percent, which isn’t great, but is better than 0 percent (no gun).
Training and skill, whether it’s acquired through practice with the pocket gun or a larger gun, dramatically increases the odds of getting acceptable hits from the low 60s to the mid 90s. Adding capacity to the pocket gun can also improve the odds, but adding capacity is not a substitute for developing skill. Three good hits are tactically and legally preferable to seven bad shots.
The best odds, regardless of skill level, come from carrying the primary, not the pocket, gun, since this overcomes both the capacity and the capability limitations of the pocket gun.
The best solution? Carry a medium or large sized handgun. Train and practice with it until you can shoot a passing score on the Three Seconds or Less drill. Carry that gun as often as you can.
Have a pocket gun, preferably one that holds six or more rounds. Train and practice with it until you can pass the test. Carry it in those situations when no other practical option exists.
Disclaimer: I've trained with Karl, have participated in one of his studies (not this one - the one comparing iron sights, laser sights and red dot sights), and have trained several times with one of the instructors he mentions in the article. So maybe I've drunk too much of the Kool-Aid ???
I'll just sit here and wait on some down-votes.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 3:01 pm to dawg23
quote:What makes you ask that?
So maybe I've drunk too much of the Kool-Aid ???
Posted on 10/29/18 at 3:25 pm to dawg23
I have always found that I need to focus on my grip with pocket pistols. It just doesn't feel right shooting with half of my hand hanging off of a grip. With something a little larger, like the Shield, I don't have that problem. I still can't get my pinky on, but have much better control of it in my palm
Posted on 10/29/18 at 3:47 pm to Marlbud
quote:
Gun > No Gun
Like I always say, it's better to have a gun and need it than to not have one and not need it.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 4:03 pm to Splackavellie
Just like a parachute, if you need it and don’t have it, probably won’t ever need it again!
Posted on 10/29/18 at 4:54 pm to dawg23
My take on the article is
Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew
is better than
Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew

Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew
is better than
Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew
Posted on 10/29/18 at 6:57 pm to AlxTgr
quote:Because I can't disagree with anything in the article. So maybe I've been brainwashed or something.
What makes you ask that?
But I do see the same thing in just about every class I teach. And I definitely see it every single time I teach a private lesson to a woman whose husband has bought her a small gun (Bodyguard .380, G43, Airweight .38, etc.). Everybody shoots a "regular" sized gun better than they shoot a tiny one.
Ten years ago this wasn't much of an issue, because the little guns weren't as widely, or as aggressively, marketed. Now every gun rag has articles and ads for the latest version of an LCP, baby SIG, or something similar.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 7:14 pm to dawg23
quote:I absolutely hate this gun, and would do better throwing it at someone than trying to shoot them
Bodyguard .380
Posted on 10/29/18 at 7:17 pm to dawg23
I agree that a bigger gun is better and easier to shoot and I carry a glock 19 when able
There are unfortunately times when I can’t carry a bigger gun, then I carry my shield.
There are unfortunately times when I can’t carry a bigger gun, then I carry my shield.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 8:03 pm to weadjust
What I take away is this:
despite the latest craze of having a micro-compact, the gun you will shoot best is a medium/fullsize gun. Better grip and ergonomics, better sight radius, just more comfortable to shoot.
Carrying a larger gun is more involved than carrying a smaller one. But the purpose of carrying is to provide yourself with protection from threats. The better you shoot something, the better it is as protection.
Sounds like the writer is saying- spend enough effort to carry something you can shoot effectively, instead of getting the smallest gun available for convenience.
despite the latest craze of having a micro-compact, the gun you will shoot best is a medium/fullsize gun. Better grip and ergonomics, better sight radius, just more comfortable to shoot.
Carrying a larger gun is more involved than carrying a smaller one. But the purpose of carrying is to provide yourself with protection from threats. The better you shoot something, the better it is as protection.
Sounds like the writer is saying- spend enough effort to carry something you can shoot effectively, instead of getting the smallest gun available for convenience.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 8:38 pm to Scoob
I prefer carrying my PPQ 9mm but it's just much easier to pocket carry my Sig P238. I practice with both on a regular basis, enough to feel confident that I could quickly deploy, aim and hit my target under stress.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 8:41 pm to Hammertime
quote:
I absolutely hate this gun, and would do better throwing it at someone than trying to shoot them
I shot one for the first time the other day and I have to agree. I couldn't hit shite with it
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:15 pm to WMTigerFAN
quote:Not doubting you can do this, but I've yet to have a student in my CCW classes who could even come close to quickly deploying a pocket pistol while seated in a vehicle with his seat belt buckled (virtually all of them carried in front pants pocket).
pocket carry my Sig P238. I practice with both on a regular basis, enough to feel confident that I could quickly deploy, aim and hit my target under stress.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:27 pm to dawg23
I'm a big advocate of "have the most gun you can have when the shite hits the fan".
Any gun is better than no gun. Any repeater is better than a single shot. (Almost) any long gun is better than a handgun.
At a certain point, you don't need more "caliber" or more "rounds" - you just need more reps and more training.
Any gun is better than no gun. Any repeater is better than a single shot. (Almost) any long gun is better than a handgun.
At a certain point, you don't need more "caliber" or more "rounds" - you just need more reps and more training.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 10:00 pm to dawg23
Posted on 10/29/18 at 10:32 pm to dawg23
I’m pretty sure we’ve had this convo on here before but the problem with your argument is it’s apples and oranges.
I don’t think anyone will argue a full size isn’t better than a small frame. However that’s like saying a full size isn’t as good as an ar pistol. There’s always going to be tools better equipped to handle the job it’s just a matter of having it.
A pocket pistol will pass those test way better than a full size gun that’s left at home 100% of the time.
I don’t think anyone will argue a full size isn’t better than a small frame. However that’s like saying a full size isn’t as good as an ar pistol. There’s always going to be tools better equipped to handle the job it’s just a matter of having it.
A pocket pistol will pass those test way better than a full size gun that’s left at home 100% of the time.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 11:26 pm to PT24-7
quote:Having both shot and observed others shooting both AR and AK pistols, I'm going to have to disagree here. Unless you make one of these a SBR (even with a brace, and thus unofficially), they're interesting, but not very useful. Too much heft and recoil for 1-handed shooting, and WAY too much noise for any indoor or enclosed environment.
However that’s like saying a full size isn’t as good as an ar pistol.
In comparison, a standard duty pistol is weighted and balanced for acceptable 1-handed use, and is chambered in a sufficiently mild round to be controllable.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 8:36 am to dawg23
I would think most people can train enough to hit an average man in the chest at 10 yards, despite pistol size.
In terms of accuracy, for me, Gold Cup >G17 >Shield but at 7-12 yards I can comfortably hit a chest sized target with my CCW which is a 9mm Shield.
I think too much thought goes in to a lot of this. Carry what's comfortable, because if it's not comfortable you won't carry it. Train with what you carry to a realistic level of accuracy and deployment.
In terms of accuracy, for me, Gold Cup >G17 >Shield but at 7-12 yards I can comfortably hit a chest sized target with my CCW which is a 9mm Shield.
I think too much thought goes in to a lot of this. Carry what's comfortable, because if it's not comfortable you won't carry it. Train with what you carry to a realistic level of accuracy and deployment.
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