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Started By
Message
re: Pocket Pistols vs. Medium/Large Semi-autos
Posted on 10/30/18 at 8:56 am to Fachie
Posted on 10/30/18 at 8:56 am to Fachie
The real reason for CC’ing is personal safety. Which is an immediate life threatening situation, so extremely close range. If you can’t hit someone at under 10 yards then I don’t know what to say?
The car jacking scenarios are so overplayed. Drive off! The amount of times you can’t drive off and have a life threatening situation where you are sitting in ia car is so low it’s really a joke to worry about. That’s like worrying about a Vegas style shooter from 100s of yards away.
You want something that is comfortably carried and deployed under normal circumstances. It’s also not something to go on the offense with, your first move should be thinking to be safe then protect yourself. I’ve seen it taught and discussed too often to go on the offensive first. Your gun is not an offensive weapon, it’s simply for defensive protection.
The car jacking scenarios are so overplayed. Drive off! The amount of times you can’t drive off and have a life threatening situation where you are sitting in ia car is so low it’s really a joke to worry about. That’s like worrying about a Vegas style shooter from 100s of yards away.
You want something that is comfortably carried and deployed under normal circumstances. It’s also not something to go on the offense with, your first move should be thinking to be safe then protect yourself. I’ve seen it taught and discussed too often to go on the offensive first. Your gun is not an offensive weapon, it’s simply for defensive protection.
2
Posted on 10/30/18 at 9:34 am to Fachie
quote:
I would think most people can train enough to hit an average man in the chest at 10 yards, despite pistol size.
You’d be surprised how few people can really connect with consistency at even 10 yards. But these people don’t seem to get that every skill requires a level of investment and time commitment.
Train, train, train... every person who I’ve seen have poor marksmanship and claim to be a big time shooter rarely puts in the time to excel in the craft of fighting with a handgun.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 10:15 am to 007mag
quote:I don't think you've followed this closely enough. Ayoob article is pretty much in complete agreement with Rehn:
This guy don't agree -- Massad Ayoob
1. The G26 is hardly a pocket pistol. Rehn's study compared proficiency with with pocket pistols vs. proficiency with "normal" size pistols.
2. Ayoob is describing shooters who clearly fit the "high skill shooter" category that Karl Rehn wrote about -- people with formal training and/or experienced competition shooters. Karl's study showed that these are the folks who experience a much smaller loss of proficiency when they swap to a smaller gun.
3. I have trained with Ayoob (my most recent class with him was his 40 hour MAG40 course). I can assure you that he carries a full size weapon (as does his SO, Gail) - except when he's being paid to evaluate & write an article about a smaller pistol. Clearly Mas, and guys like Jerry Miculek, could defend themselves quite handily with a variety of smaller guns that would likely handicap other folks (the "low skill shooters" that Rehn writes about).
Posted on 10/30/18 at 10:53 am to baldona
quote:Agree 100%
The real reason for CC’ing is personal safety.
quote:Agree 100%.
Your gun is not an offensive weapon, it’s simply for defensive protection.
quote:Disagree.
Which is an immediate life threatening situation, so extremely close range. If you can’t hit someone at under 10 yards then I don’t know what to say?
a. The threat may or may not be at extremely close range. Rehn quotes Tom Givens' comment saying the "typical" gunfight distance is three yards, but some of Tom's students have had to engage threats at much greater distances - one at 15 yards, one at 17 yards, and one at 22 yards.
b. If you can hit a moving threat (He's typically not gonna just stand there while you shoot at him) at 22 yards, while he's shooting at you (If he's a threat at 22 yards it's gonna be a gun), while you're moving (Hopefully you're not gonna stand still while he shoots at you), you're in the Jerry Miculek class of shooters.
3. The hit rate for cops - nationwide - in gunfights is 20%. This rate has ranged from 19% to 21% over the past 10-12 years. Cops don't shoot this poorly at the range (if they did, they'd never qualify to carry). But under stress our skills are gonna diminish - significantly.
4. There are very few circumstances that justify further handicapping one's self by carry a pocket pistol or a small caliber (smaller than 9mm) handgun. As Clint Smith told us once, "Too many people choose to carry a small gun because it's convenient, instead of making an effort to accommodate a larger gun."
Posted on 10/30/18 at 11:04 am to baldona
quote:10 yds at a paper target standing still, when you're casually at the range- that's one thing.
The real reason for CC’ing is personal safety. Which is an immediate life threatening situation, so extremely close range. If you can’t hit someone at under 10 yards then I don’t know what to say?
10 yds and closing, and moving around, when you're taken by surprise and scared/chock full of adrenaline- that's another.
Even for those who train and take classes, you don't expect your instructor to kill you if you fail. That creates a lot of physiological changes that make aiming a lot different... it's like 'test anxiety', that guy who knows all the answers buts locks up during exams.
quote:ALL assaults are low percentage... most of us will never need to defend ourselves.
The car jacking scenarios are so overplayed. Drive off! The amount of times you can’t drive off and have a life threatening situation where you are sitting in ia car is so low it’s really a joke to worry about.
In the late 80's one of my acquaintances was carjacked on Nicholson, near Catfish Town.
When my son was in high school a couple years back, a bum surprised him at a gas station near the house. He had filled up and had just opened the door to get back in, and the bum came from behind the pump to hassle him for money. Said he got inside the doorframe, right up on his elbow. No attack, and left after my son told him 'no'... but my kid was shaken as hell. He normally keeps his head up, and had been there before plenty of times. He won't go back to that station, even now.
I've had similar occurrences. Some of those bums are brazen as hell, and I think want to rattle you into giving them some cash. They come around that pump and are already at arm's length, and over your left shoulder.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 11:13 am to Scoob
quote:
a bum surprised him at a gas station near the house
Again, this is not a life threating situation. "Oh but it could be..." Well you can't carry a sniper rifle around for things like the Vegas shooting.
The idea that I should carry a bigger gun in the south when I'm in shorts and a shirt 90% of the year is simply dumb. Its not even worth discussing. I'm not fat and I'm not gonna wear bigger clothes just to wear a bigger gun. I'm not changing my life around.
quote:
ALL assaults are low percentage... most of us will never need to defend ourselves
This is a dumb argument. Again, the Vegas shooting. You can't compare the chances of 1 exact instance of needing a particular gun to the overall scheme of things. There's assaults where a CC is used, and then there is everything else that you can't possibly plan for.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 11:17 am to dawg23
quote:
3. The hit rate for cops - nationwide - in gunfights is 20%. This rate has ranged from 19% to 21% over the past 10-12 years. Cops don't shoot this poorly at the range (if they did, they'd never qualify to carry). But under stress our skills are gonna diminish - significantly.
If you want to make this argument for CC, you lose all credibility with me. Comparing police shootings and CC makes almost 0 sense. Its a completely different thing. That's like comparing an A10 accuracy on Snackbars to a police shooting. Both involve guns right?
You take the recent McDonalds shooting. That wasn't the main point of CC. Some guy comes in a restaurant and your job isn't to protect everyone. The basic principle is to protect yourself and your immediate family. Most of the time there is a shoot out with CC its because people are going above and beyond the basic principles of CC.
Someone comes into a restaurant and you pull your gun and hide, wait for them to engage you. If you choose to engage them while they are engaging others that's more of a Police issue. That's where all of the bad stats come from. We would all do it without a doubt, but that doesn't justify carrying a bigger gun because you want to protect others.
ETA: I'm not saying the guy was not a hero. I'm saying that most restaurant CC occurances the perp goes into rob or otherwise shoot someone working there. The customers are generally safe. But a customer engaging the perp, is not the typical CC scenario to choose a weapon from because you are not the main target.
This post was edited on 10/30/18 at 11:20 am
Posted on 10/30/18 at 11:34 am to bapple
quote:I've had people tell me their barrel must be bent when shooting at 3 and 5 yards. Magically, they straightened out when I shot them
You’d be surprised how few people can really connect with consistency at even 10 yards
The most important thing for me when training for self-defense situations is that the gun must naturally point where you want it to. I don't have to aim either of mine, and can run drills successfully until I don't feel like it
Posted on 10/30/18 at 11:39 am to Hammertime
quote:
The most important thing for me when training for self-defense situations is that the gun must naturally point where you want it to. I don't have to aim either of mine, and can run drills successfully until I don't feel like it
Absolutely right. Not enough people practice outside the gun range with real ammo. To be really proficient with a gun it should be second nature.
Airsoft for example. Sounds stupid but accuracy is accuracy. Learn to hit what you are pointing at without aiming. Obviously stress and recoil add things to every situation, but there's more things to practice than simply shooting at a gun range.
ETA: you take the average guy that grew up shooting BB guns in the backyard and hunting squirrels with their dad growing up, and he's likely to be more accurate than a 20 year old city cop with no gun experience before 18 simply due to hours of holding a gun and shooting at things.
This post was edited on 10/30/18 at 11:41 am
Posted on 10/30/18 at 11:42 am to baldona
quote:I'm sure you're trying to make a point, but I really don't know what it is. Are you saying the average CCW citizen is going to perform at a higher level in a gunfight than the average (meaning state, local & federal) cop?
If you want to make this argument for CC, you lose all credibility with me. Comparing police shootings and CC makes almost 0 sense. Its a completely different thing. That's like comparing an A10 accuracy on Snackbars to a police shooting. Both involve guns right?
If you want a "truer" comparison, we can look at data for undercover cops, detectives, FBI agents and other "non-uniform" LEOs and compare them to CCW data. The statistics are the same.
CCW citizens and non-uniform LEO's get selected as victims by thugs somewhere every day. And every time it happens, the proposed victim is at a huge disadvantage ('cause they got bushwhacked) - which causes severe stress and usually results in poor performance (way below what they demonstrate at the range).
Hopefully you'll never need a gun. And if you do, hopefully you'll perform at a level far superior to that of most cops. Hopefully you won't be in Karl Rehn's 40% group.
As far as your choice of guns, I'm not trying to convince you to change anything -- you've already indicated you place a higher priority on your wardrobe than on carrying a full size gun. But hey, it's your life, your decisions. No criticism from me. (I happen to carry a G19 and a spare mag every day, all day. But I'm not expecting everyone to do the same).
But, when you post opinions that are contrary to real world conditions (static target at 10 yard stuff), you shouldn't get all defensive when people correct you.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 11:45 am to dawg23
quote:
a. The threat may or may not be at extremely close range. Rehn quotes Tom Givens' comment saying the "typical" gunfight distance is three yards, but some of Tom's students have had to engage threats at much greater distances - one at 15 yards, one at 17 yards, and one at 22 yards.
I agree with almost all of that, but again typical gunfight and CC are completely different scenarios.
In a CC scenario your first and foremost process is your own survival, not engaging the suspect. You move, hide, and survive first. Then if possible engage. You are not a policeman trying to stop a robbery, you are a civilian trying to survive. If I die saving someone else from a robbery, what good did CC do me?
If I have a compact weapon, I'm doing everything possible to not have an engagement beyond 10 yards. I'm hiding in a corner down low where the perp would be at 5 yards looking over me and dead before he knows what happened.
You put the situation in your favor to survive first.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 11:45 am to baldona
quote:I bought my first handgun not long ago. I could not believe how easy it was to hit stuff with it.
you take the average guy that grew up shooting BB guns in the backyard and hunting squirrels with their dad growing up, and he's likely to be more accurate than a 20 year old city cop with no gun experience before 18 simply due to hours of holding a gun and shooting at things.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 11:53 am to AlxTgr
That ability comes from your extensive self-defense training
Posted on 10/30/18 at 11:56 am to dawg23
quote:
I'm sure you're trying to make a point, but I really don't know what it is. Are you saying the average CCW citizen is going to perform at a higher level in a gunfight than the average (meaning state, local & federal) cop?
No I'm saying the situations are completely different.
Let's take a shooter in a public place that is there to murder an employee, there's a cop there and there's a civilian with a CCW. On a purely legal standpoint, the civilian should be hiding and protecting themselves. The civilians legality is not to engage unless they feel threatened. The civilian could have a close and clear shot to engage the perp, but if they are not threatened themselves there's a potential gray area of legality right?
The policeman on the other hand, their job is to protect and serve. They are to engage and stop the crime, and to apprehend the suspect.
If the shooter leaves the location, the CCW can not legally go after them. The police on the other hand has a duty to pursue them.
Two different scenarios with the same shooter and location.
We need to keep the primary role of CCW in mind.
This post was edited on 10/30/18 at 11:59 am
Posted on 10/30/18 at 11:58 am to baldona
Neither have a legal obligation to do anything. As a CCW holder, you are justified in defending someone else's life (but have a plan in place for the repercussions)
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:06 pm to Hammertime
quote:
Neither have a legal obligation to do anything. As a CCW holder, you are justified in defending someone else's life (but have a plan in place for the repercussions)
Oh I understand that. But its not your primary reason to CCW. If someone is CCW'ing to protect others, they need to stop and think long and hard then consider just being a cop.
Its obvious that a full size pistol is more ideal. But again, its not about winning a gun fight and killing the other person. Its about survival. Its not about engaging the other person, its about protecting yourself and your family.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:29 pm to baldona
quote:Nope - not right.
Let's take a shooter in a public place that is there to murder an employee, there's a cop there and there's a civilian with a CCW. On a purely legal standpoint, the civilian should be hiding and protecting themselves. The civilians legality is not to engage unless they feel threatened. The civilian could have a close and clear shot to engage the perp, but if they are not threatened themselves there's a potential gray area of legality right?
I don't know where you reside, but I'll wager you have the right to defend others. There's no gray area - - the statutes in every state spell out when you can use deadly force to defend others.
You really ought to be more careful about posting stuff like this. Lots of people visit this forum.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:53 pm to baldona
Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that the only people who notice someone carrying is other people carrying. After I came to that realization, IDGAF about printing
Posted on 10/30/18 at 1:20 pm to Hammertime
quote:
the only people who notice someone carrying is other people carrying. After I came to that realization, IDGAF about printing
I live in MS and with the open carry law every Tom, Dick, and Jamal aren't bothering to conceal any more. Just wearing a holster on their belt shopping at Wal Mart.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 1:24 pm to Hammertime
quote:
Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that the only people who notice someone carrying is other people carrying. After I came to that realization, IDGAF about printing
I've never cared about imprinting at all. Its just that its freaking hot! I already usually have my small EDC knife, keys, wallet, and cell phone. I have kids and its either miserably hot or I'm doing something active with them. I just don't like a full size.
There's nothing wrong with a full size at all. I just think the idea behind CCW is to protect yourself. Not go out and be John McClain saving the world from a terrorist. I feel perfectly safe without my CCW, with it is just a bonus and I prefer forgetting its there.
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