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Why does our educational system glorify stem and 4 year degrees?
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:13 am
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:13 am
What's the point?
Half these kids without the aptitude to become a programmer or biologist might make damn good plumbers or mechanics.
And that not a slam. A lot of white collar people are hopeless when it comes to spatial sense or working with their hands.
Can you imagine if these kids who are sitting in class learning nothing had other options?
"Hey, would you rather sit in this class all Day or come with us and build a house!"
It just seems so impractical.
We need to test these kids for aptitude at an early age and put them on a more logical path.
This might make a big difference with crime and with overall living standards and even just basic social harmony.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:16 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
Half these kids without the aptitude to become a programmer or biologist might make damn good plumbers or mechanics.
And that not a slam. A lot of white collar people are hopeless when it comes to spatial sense or working with their hands.
![](https://images.tigerdroppings.com/Images/Icons/Iconrotflmao.gif)
![](https://images.tigerdroppings.com/Images/Icons/Iconrotflmao.gif)
yes, a person who can get a 4-year degree in computer science would have problem with plumbing or being a mechanic
![](https://images.tigerdroppings.com/Images/Icons/IconLOL.gif)
quote:
We need to test these kids for aptitude at an early age and put them on a more logical path.
This might make a big difference with crime and with overall living standards and even just basic social harmony.
Yes, having the population cohorts most likely to engage in crime less educated will do wonders for their productivity long-term
Look, I think it is a waste to spend resources trying to educate kids who show no future, but I'm not going to pretend that my preferred plan of removing them from classes is going to impact their chances positively.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:19 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
Why does our educational system glorify stem and 4 year degrees?
My little brothers high school has programs to get into welding, mechanic, banking, hospitality, and several partnerships with local businesses to hire graduates right out of school for those not interested/suited for the college route?
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:20 am to RiverCityTider
The issue is that society finds the idea that you would prioritize educational resources by aptitude repugnant. When the kids are being discussed, people feel like steering or denying opportunity based on demonstrated aptitude is unjust. Add the politics on top of it and the messaging would be my opponent doesn't think your kid is smart enough to chase the American dream.
Most people prefer the outlier illusion of coming from nothing to be something surprising to the numbers which demonstrate very few people do that.
ETA: SFP's dismissive post above did more to demonstrate exactly what I just said than just about anything else could. QED.
Most people prefer the outlier illusion of coming from nothing to be something surprising to the numbers which demonstrate very few people do that.
ETA: SFP's dismissive post above did more to demonstrate exactly what I just said than just about anything else could. QED.
This post was edited on 2/24/24 at 9:22 am
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:24 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
We need to test these kids for aptitude at an early age and put them on a more logical path.
This might make a big difference with crime and with overall living standards and even just basic social harmony.
Sounds like Brave New World. FDR also proposed this in his speech to Princeton.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:25 am to RiverCityTider
Nothing wrong with STEM degrees, and anyone getting those will have a good job when they get out of school.
The issue is when you get degrees that have no use in the job market. Several degrees are great if you continue to law school or phd level but often just a bachelors isn’t going to cut it. Ie psychology, criminal justice, history, etc.
The job market for those isn’t a great return on investment. Especially if you attend a private university. Imagine paying $300k to be a teacher. That just isn’t a great ROI in today’s climate.
The issue is when you get degrees that have no use in the job market. Several degrees are great if you continue to law school or phd level but often just a bachelors isn’t going to cut it. Ie psychology, criminal justice, history, etc.
The job market for those isn’t a great return on investment. Especially if you attend a private university. Imagine paying $300k to be a teacher. That just isn’t a great ROI in today’s climate.
This post was edited on 2/24/24 at 9:31 am
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:28 am to RiverCityTider
Look, there's not a damn thing wrong with the trades, as here we are, nearly a year since my daughter graduated from OU. She managed to get a great job with really good pay right away, but several of her friends that she graduated with are working as waitresses because they can't get interviews for one reason or another. Of course, these girls (sorority types) would never be the type to work in a trade. It has to be depressing for them.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:44 am to RiverCityTider
The education system does overemphasize the 4 year degree, but STEM fields should be prioritized over bullshite like women’s studies and interpretive dance.
I do agree with you on trades. Society needs to stop stigmatizing them.
I do agree with you on trades. Society needs to stop stigmatizing them.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:51 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
A lot of white collar people are hopeless when it comes to spatial sense or working with their hands.
Can you imagine if these kids who are sitting in class learning nothing had other options?
True! My youngest son has been addicted to computers since the first time he saw a video game. He has spent most of his adult life in front of monitor on a keyboard.
Has no interest nor ability in mechanical devices.
He called me because a pipe was leaking. I asked him the size of the pipe. I stopped at Lowes, picked up couple of fittings, and had it fixed in about twenty minutes. I tried to explain it to him. He said, Dad you know I have no interest in that.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:55 am to RiverCityTider
Nothing wrong with STEM degrees. Engineers are essential to our society. Our problem is that we don't have enough and are in danger of falling behind other countries. Our advances in technology are driven by scientists and implemented by engineers.
On the other hand, we also need people with the skills to build such things. We need skilled tradespeople. My father was a tool and die maker. I am an engineer. I have great respect for what he did. If you ask an engineer if he values craftsmen or liberal arts majors it is an easy answer.
The point is we need both. They are a team in building this country.
What we don't need are more gender studies graduates.
On the other hand, we also need people with the skills to build such things. We need skilled tradespeople. My father was a tool and die maker. I am an engineer. I have great respect for what he did. If you ask an engineer if he values craftsmen or liberal arts majors it is an easy answer.
The point is we need both. They are a team in building this country.
What we don't need are more gender studies graduates.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:59 am to RiverCityTider
Because colleges and universities make a ton of money on quantities of students, not necessary qualities of students.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:01 am to RiverCityTider
We’re not glorifying STEM. What are you smoking?
We aren’t producing nearly enough STEM grads.
We aren’t producing nearly enough STEM grads.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:10 am to RiverCityTider
Many STEM fields pay very well and have good job prospects. That’s probably why it’s valued. Most fields with challenging training tend to pay better. I noticed you skipped right over every engineering degree.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:10 am to RiverCityTider
My bigger question is why do people let this bother them?
Let those with an aptitude for plumbing, carpentry, etc., find it.
Regarding STEM, the world continues to become more reliant on technology and those with specialized training in this field are needed to keep up.
These technological advances also mean more regulation and laws are needed, which means the need for professions like the lawyers will continue to rise.
Cap that off with the need for humanities in any civilized society and you have a reason to continue funding with liberal arts programs.
Let those with an aptitude for plumbing, carpentry, etc., find it.
Regarding STEM, the world continues to become more reliant on technology and those with specialized training in this field are needed to keep up.
These technological advances also mean more regulation and laws are needed, which means the need for professions like the lawyers will continue to rise.
Cap that off with the need for humanities in any civilized society and you have a reason to continue funding with liberal arts programs.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:21 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
We need to test these kids for aptitude at an early age and put them on a more logical path.
Elite colleges are reversing course and making ACT/SAT tests mandatory again. But there are still colleges that accept you with a 10 on your ACT (like Grambling). Those kids get their degree but they are worthless except for companies with DEI quotas.
In K-12 I'm a big proponent of Basic/General/Gifted separation of classes. In HS when I had to take a general class due to scheduling conflicts I was shocked at how stupid average kids were and frustrated that the teacher had to go so slowly that I got bored and just did my homework from gifted classes.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:27 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
Why does our educational system glorify stem and 4 year degrees?
In many instances, society operates a bit like a metronome. It sees a shortcoming and rushes to a solution point. The momentum of the rush often carries it to an extreme end. From there society realizes that there is no a different (or opposite) problem, but momentum is a difficulty beast to turn so it only slowly turns back the other way before eventually picking up momentum in going on that direction. Eventually the issue comes to another extreme so society reverses (or changes direction) again and the same behavior repeats.
Prior to the Baby Boomers, college was (for the most part) the domain of the very wealthy and/or incredibly gifted. Back then, anyone who graduated from college was pretty much guaranteed to get a job which would provide them a lucrative salary. Also, back then there wasn't much in the way of degrees with practically no utility (gender studies, art appreciation, etc).
During this time, there were many more blue-collar than white-collar jobs. Someone without a degree could get a white-collar (read: higher paying and less physically demanding) job, but most were doing manual labor (to varying levels).
It was drilled into the heads of Boomers that they should go to college if they really wanted to get those white-collar jobs, and that's just what they did. This was, by far, the largest generation to enroll in higher learning and colleges and universities expanded to encompass that. Along with that, Boomers ended up influencing the atmosphere on college campuses where more of a push for more philosophical studies (as opposed to what we now consider "stem") came about.
This allowed for the increase in the different types of degrees available which enticed more students to go to college. Society was benefiting from a more educated population so the underlying belief became "if this much is good, then doing even more should be even better". This is also at a time where the growing number of college graduates meant that competition for jobs moved more and more toward a college degree being a mandatory requirement instead of just a big edge.
So the underlying philosophy shifted subtly from "you should get a degree because it helps tremendously" to "you MUST get a 4-year degree in order to just be considered for a specific job". In many instances we're even at a point where a graduate degree is required to move up beyond a certain job level.
What we've been seeing over the last decade or so is the momentum starting to move back as the focus on competing for white-collar jobs has caused there to be a bit of a vacuum in blue-collar jobs (AC repair, mechanics, carpenters, plumbers, etc) (this is also aided by an increasing amount of degrees no longer being able to pay what it cost to attain them).
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:33 am to RiverCityTider
Vo/Tech programs should start in high school. More emphasis should be made for vo/tech in community colleges. Non-STEM programs should be phased out in universities except for those that the graduate has a realistic opportunity to make a decent living. I don't see education listed as a STEM program but obviously we need teachers and hate to say but attorneys, too. Phase out the federal guaranteed student loans and if a student needs a loan, get it the normal way (or work harder in high school and get scholarships).
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:33 am to RiverCityTider
(no message)
This post was edited on 2/24/24 at 10:34 am
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:42 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
Why does our educational system glorify stem
Does it? Seems like STEM is being forgotten in favor of social engineering and a big reason why we contouring fall behind other countries.
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