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re: Mahomes is the GOAT
Posted on 2/12/24 at 5:37 pm to supatigah
Posted on 2/12/24 at 5:37 pm to supatigah
quote:
Exactly But man shite changes quickly, that is another thing about Brady. Staying elite for so long with so many changes.
Lol he was in the NFL for 23 years and had like 5 elite seasons at most.
If stat accumulating is so in then y’all have no problem with Frank Gore being in the HoF right? 3rd most rushing yards, 4th most yards from scrimmage, and 25th all time in tds. Gotta be a first ballot guy right?
Posted on 2/12/24 at 6:52 pm to Dairy Sanders
quote:Stop
Lol he was in the NFL for 23 years and had like 5 elite seasons at most
He had 8 seasons with a passer rating above 100(and probably 3 or 4 more just shy of that mark) . For his career, I'd guess 4-5 dudes per year do that.
Those 8 seasons, his teams ranks in PPG
1
1
2
2
3
3
3
3
This post was edited on 2/12/24 at 6:59 pm
Posted on 2/12/24 at 7:18 pm to CarolinaGamecock99
quote:
Dude is the best QB ever and it’s not close
lulz
Posted on 2/12/24 at 9:29 pm to shel311
quote:
He had 8 seasons with a passer rating above 100(and probably 3 or 4 more just shy of that mark) . For his career, I'd guess 4-5 dudes per year do that.
Number of seasons with a passer rating index of 120+ plus (it compares your passer rating in a given season with the league wide average passer rating for that season and for index purposes that average is always 100);
Peyton Manning: 9 out of 17 seasons as a starter.
Brady: 4 out of 21 seasons as a starter.
Rodgers: 8 out of 15 seasons as a starter.
Mahomes: 3 out of 6 seasons as a starter.
Brees: 8 out of 19 seasons as a starter.
Rivers: 5 out of 15 seasons as a starter.
Roethlisberger: 5 out of 17 seasons as a starter.
Marino: 4 out of 16 seasons as a starter.
Montana: 7 out of 13 seasons as a starter.
Young: 8 out of 9 seasons as a starter.
So it was 4 elite seasons, not 5. Kurt Warner had 3 in 7 seasons as a starter. So yeah Brady was largely a game manager carried by his defense save for less than 20% of career. He won a Super Bowl in only one of those 120+ seasons.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 12:01 am to Dairy Sanders
quote:
So yeah Brady was largely a game manager carried by his defense save for less than 20% of career.
NE lead the league in scoring 4 times under brady 07, 10, 12, 14
they were second in scoring 13, 17
they were third in scoring 04, 11, 15, 16,
they were fourth in scoring 18
they were fifth in scoring 06
TB was second in scoring in 20, 21
so in 21 seasons game manager Tom Brady relying on his defense lead an offense that was in the top 5 in scoring 14 times
that is 67% of his career in the top five in scoring
game manager Tom Brady played with 800+ yard rusher 12 times in 21 seasons
he played with a 1000 yard rusher 5 times
now I realize they used RB by committe, a lot of short passing, and the TEs in place of a running game
however, brady was under 7.0 yd/att only 5 times in 21 seasons
he lead the league in y/a twice and was over 8.0 four times
Manning had a HOF WR and a HOF RB most of his time in Indy
brady’s best RB was Clock Killin’ Corey Dillon or LeGarrette Blount and his best WR was two full seasons of Randy Moss at 30 and 32. Moss was 31 in 2008 when brady was out
in 2007 moss with Brady had 98 catches for 1493 yds, 23 TDs and a robust 15.2 y/c
in 2008 moss with Cassel had 69 catches for 1008, 11 TDs and 14.6y/c
in 2009 moss with Brady had 83 catches for 1264, 13 TDs and 15.2y/c
obviously Gronk at TE was a difference maker when brady was in the last 1/2 of his career.
Dallas Clark compares somewhat to Gronk in productvity
Gronk had Career
G 143
Rec 621
Yds 9286
Y/R 15.0
TD 92
Clark had Career
G 143
Rec. 505
Yds 5665
Y/R 11.2
TD 53
Posted on 2/13/24 at 7:31 am to supatigah
quote:
NE lead the league in scoring 4 times under brady 07, 10, 12, 14 they were second in scoring 13, 17 they were third in scoring 04, 11, 15, 16, they were fourth in scoring 18 they were fifth in scoring 06
That includes defense and special teams scoring so yeah no.
quote:
Dallas Clark compares somewhat to Gronk in productvity Gronk had Career G 143 Rec 621 Yds 9286 Y/R 15.0 TD 92 Clark had Career G 143 Rec. 505 Yds 5665 Y/R 11.2 TD 53
Lol
Posted on 2/13/24 at 7:49 am to supatigah
quote:
Dallas Clark compares somewhat to Gronk in productvity Gronk had Career
Bro
Posted on 2/13/24 at 8:27 am to RB10
I think Mahomes is in the top 3 now of all time and is likely going to be the goat when it’s all said and done.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 8:32 am to UnluckyTiger
Even if you want to use irrational arguments like team stats, Mahomes has 3 SBs and what? 6 straight conference title appearances?
That would put him tied for 4th with Aikman. Anyone who would rank Aikman ahead of Mahomes has had more concussions than Aikman.
Doing what he does in-season in a much more highly competitive era than the pre-Free agency Steelers and 49ers dyansties should easily put Mahomes ahead of Montana or Bradshaw.
So if we're using team stats as the lead with individual performance as the secondary variable, if Mahomes died today he'd be 2nd all time.
If we are using more rational measurements of judging individual players, it gets tricker. Brady would fall, Manning and Rodgers would shoot up.
That would put him tied for 4th with Aikman. Anyone who would rank Aikman ahead of Mahomes has had more concussions than Aikman.
Doing what he does in-season in a much more highly competitive era than the pre-Free agency Steelers and 49ers dyansties should easily put Mahomes ahead of Montana or Bradshaw.
So if we're using team stats as the lead with individual performance as the secondary variable, if Mahomes died today he'd be 2nd all time.
If we are using more rational measurements of judging individual players, it gets tricker. Brady would fall, Manning and Rodgers would shoot up.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 8:55 am to tee3
quote:
Mahomes is well on his way to surpassing Brady, let's be real, he's better.
No. Maybe one day, not currently.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 9:12 am to Old Money
If Brady is better than Mahomes because of “rings”, then Julian Eldmam is better than Moss.
At the same point in their careers Mahomes is ahead of Brady in individual achievement and team accomplishments. And the eye test tells you there is no contest.
At the same point in their careers Mahomes is ahead of Brady in individual achievement and team accomplishments. And the eye test tells you there is no contest.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 9:22 am to Dairy Sanders
quote:Do you have a link that shows 120 is the standard, or did you cherry pick that number?
Number of seasons with a passer rating index of 120+ plus (it compares your passer rating in a given season with the league wide average passer rating for that season and for index purposes that average is always 100);
Percentage of seasons with a Rat+ of 110 or higher:
Manning 76.4%
Brady 76.1%
quote:Basically just as good as Manning using Rating+ of 110 or higher, so now what?
So it was 4 elite seasons, not 5. Kurt Warner had 3 in 7 seasons as a starter. So yeah Brady was largely a game manager carried by his defense save for less than 20% of career. He won a Super Bowl in only one of those 120+ seasons.
Also saying he was a game manager when his teams were top 3 in scoring a shite ton of times due more so to passing and not running is absurdly wrong.
This post was edited on 2/13/24 at 9:24 am
Posted on 2/13/24 at 9:24 am to CarolinaGamecock99
Why can't we stop the GOAT discussion until after someone retires? Just enjoy the show!
Posted on 2/13/24 at 9:24 am to RB10
come on, that is one part of a pretty long post
earlier in the thread someone said Brady’s offenses were loaded which is debatable but he never had a Harrison/James/Clark type guys around him.
the dallas clark vs gronk comparison was part of manning had a HOF WR and a HOF RB with an All Pro TE
Clark statistically is about 1/2 of Gronk’s production
Tom Brady had two years of a 30+ HOF WR in Moss, two All Pro seasons out of WR Welker and a HOF TE in Gronk. RB was a revolving door in NE
earlier in the thread someone said Brady’s offenses were loaded which is debatable but he never had a Harrison/James/Clark type guys around him.
quote:
obviously Gronk at TE was a difference maker when brady was in the last 1/2 of his career.
the dallas clark vs gronk comparison was part of manning had a HOF WR and a HOF RB with an All Pro TE
Clark statistically is about 1/2 of Gronk’s production
Tom Brady had two years of a 30+ HOF WR in Moss, two All Pro seasons out of WR Welker and a HOF TE in Gronk. RB was a revolving door in NE
This post was edited on 2/13/24 at 9:28 am
Posted on 2/13/24 at 9:26 am to Old Money
quote:There are 2 things here:
No. Maybe one day, not currently.
- Better at playing the position
- Longevity
Mahomes plays the position of QB better than Brady ever has. There's legit no need for us to debate that. It's not close.
Brady was elite for longer.
That's it, those 2 things are basically inarguable at this point.
This post was edited on 2/13/24 at 9:29 am
Posted on 2/13/24 at 9:33 am to shel311
right shel
I dont dispute Mahomes is right now a better QB than Brady ever was
but GOAT is a sum total of everything in a career
the biggest differentiator between what mahomes is doing versus what brady did is the totals. if mahomes continues on this trajectory he will blow Brady out of the water statistically and team success and probably be the GOAT
if mahomes never plays another game to me he is 3rd behind Brady and Montana but that is obviously debatable as well
I dont dispute Mahomes is right now a better QB than Brady ever was
but GOAT is a sum total of everything in a career
the biggest differentiator between what mahomes is doing versus what brady did is the totals. if mahomes continues on this trajectory he will blow Brady out of the water statistically and team success and probably be the GOAT
if mahomes never plays another game to me he is 3rd behind Brady and Montana but that is obviously debatable as well
Posted on 2/13/24 at 10:07 am to St Augustine
quote:
But he can thank Chris Jones for this Super Bowl.
Don't forget Butker plus he was a huge part of them even being in LV.
That being said I think someone is being left out of the conversation: Tommy Townsend. He put on an absolute clinic on punting. Punt after punt with over 5.1 seconds of hang. He also is the one that made Butker's 57 yd field goal possible because he took the high snap off his right shoulder, got it down laces out for Harrison.
There were some very good individual play from both sidelines but I think if you compare position by position (not just stats but actually counting things stats don't illuminate like the high snap) I think many would agree KC's kicker/punter were the biggest mismatch in performance.
Also not taking anything away from Chris Jones' play but arguably his biggest play was blowing up the timing of the final 3rd down play on the 9er's drive in OT. Kyle got a bit creative with his protection package and the right guard and tackle parted like the Red Sea letting Jones rumble untouched into Purdy's grill. They had man coverage and drew upon a perfect whip route to Jennings which would have been an easy score if Purdy had had another second. But the cutesy pop out protection left Jones, of all people, unaccounted for. Pop out protection is a recipe for disaster if you get a blitz (which KC never does /s). The guard made a mistake and doubled the LB that blitzed and the tackle shifted out to pick up the DE after Kittle chipped him leaving Jones unmarked.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 12:11 pm to shel311
120 is considered surefire PB, All-Pro territory. 130 is considered All-Pro, MVP level, great tier throughout history. Anything over 140 is considered an all-time elite season (think if it like a 2,000 yard rushing season equivalent for passers).
There are a couple of outliers in there that scored highly, but were due to highly efficient but extremely limited usage (Nic Foles 2013 and Purdy 2023) so I won’t say it is 100% perfect and don’t question it - I personally have some issues with the formula that is used to calculate Passer Rating in general - but it’s pretty much the best way to compare how great of a passer a quarterback was compared to his peers across the years. It doesn’t factor in what a quarterback does in the running game so guys like Mahomes, Young, Rodgers, and Jackson are not rewarded for their full impact as a player though.
There are a couple of outliers in there that scored highly, but were due to highly efficient but extremely limited usage (Nic Foles 2013 and Purdy 2023) so I won’t say it is 100% perfect and don’t question it - I personally have some issues with the formula that is used to calculate Passer Rating in general - but it’s pretty much the best way to compare how great of a passer a quarterback was compared to his peers across the years. It doesn’t factor in what a quarterback does in the running game so guys like Mahomes, Young, Rodgers, and Jackson are not rewarded for their full impact as a player though.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 12:14 pm to shel311
quote:
Brady was elite for longer.
Ehh. Good to great, sure. Brady is basically the Kareem of the NFL. Mahomes is the Jordan.
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