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re: Mahomes is the GOAT
Posted on 2/12/24 at 2:12 pm to CarolinaGamecock99
Posted on 2/12/24 at 2:12 pm to CarolinaGamecock99
Objectively, it’s fair to say Mahomes is ahead of where Brady was at age 28 (2005 season for Brady). They’re tied in SB wins and SB MVPs with Mahomes leading in regular season MVPs and many stats. Putting his midway point in 2012, Brady had 5 SB appearances and 3 championships by age 35. Mahomes is well ahead of this pace.
The astounding thing about Brady is his longevity though. He only got better from there and while his early SBs could be attributed to the defense, the later ones were Brady led greatness like the Chiefs wins have been.
Brady had another 4 championship in 5 appearances AFTER age 37. This right here is why he’s the GOAT, it’s completely unheard of. He has 2 Hall of Fame careers in one.
The question will be how Mahomes transitions in his 30s and 40s when key coaches or contributors are gone. If he can adapt like Brady, he may well wind up as the new GOAT over the next decade.
The astounding thing about Brady is his longevity though. He only got better from there and while his early SBs could be attributed to the defense, the later ones were Brady led greatness like the Chiefs wins have been.
Brady had another 4 championship in 5 appearances AFTER age 37. This right here is why he’s the GOAT, it’s completely unheard of. He has 2 Hall of Fame careers in one.
The question will be how Mahomes transitions in his 30s and 40s when key coaches or contributors are gone. If he can adapt like Brady, he may well wind up as the new GOAT over the next decade.
This post was edited on 2/12/24 at 2:15 pm
1
Posted on 2/12/24 at 2:19 pm to CarolinaGamecock99
I want to say he just now tied Aikman with 3, he’s still behind Montana and Bradshaw who have 4 each and then Brady with 7. Based on that alone, I don’t see how you can crown him the goat.
Until last night he was tied with the Mannings and Big Ben, so it’s not like he’s doing something the NFL has never seen before.
Until last night he was tied with the Mannings and Big Ben, so it’s not like he’s doing something the NFL has never seen before.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 2:22 pm to supatigah
quote:
that kind of what if BS goes to infinity, there is no end to the hypotheticals
Which is exactly why putting so much importance on team accomplishments is not logical when comparing players.
quote:
and that is a cheap argument for a lawyer
You're making my argument for me, actually
quote:
I am blown away at the recency bias in this thread, some in this thread seem to believe the NFL began in 2010 or some shite
You do know that in 2010 we were having the exact same discussion about not giving Brady credit for team wins, on this very board, right?
It's just in that context we were talking about Manning, Rodgers, etc.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 2:40 pm to Starchild
well said
just look at this again
his top yardage season was at 44y/o
his top two attempts and completions seasons were at 44 and 45
this was done in the same League as his peers Rodgers, Mahomes, BenR, etc
He won a SB and the SB MVP at 43
I mean holy shite man
just look at this again
quote:
at age 43, Brady had 401/610 for 4633yds 40 TDs 12 INTs and 65.7%
at age 44, Brady had 485/719 for 5316yds 43 TDs 12 INTs and 67.5%
at age 45, Brady had 490/733 for 4694yds 25 TDs 9 INTs and 66.8%
his top yardage season was at 44y/o
his top two attempts and completions seasons were at 44 and 45
this was done in the same League as his peers Rodgers, Mahomes, BenR, etc
He won a SB and the SB MVP at 43
I mean holy shite man
Posted on 2/12/24 at 2:41 pm to supatigah
quote:
QB is the most important position on the team
Maybe on offense. I'd argue the Center and O-Line collectively matter more (which NE had one of, if not the best, O-Line in history over the span of 2 decades).
On defense, the QB position is meaningless…and, again, NE had one of the best most consistent defenses in history over 2 decades.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 2:43 pm to supatigah
quote:
his top yardage season was at 44y/o
That was, by far, the most loaded offense outside of QB, in the NFL that year. Brady put up the same yardage as Jameis Winston (and Winston had LESS talent around him) in the same offense
Posted on 2/12/24 at 2:51 pm to CarolinaGamecock99
By GOAT, do you mean the qb who the NFL props up the most with poor officiating and coddling?
Posted on 2/12/24 at 2:52 pm to SlowFlowPro
frankly SFP I have made a very clear case about Brady covering more than just titles
but I dont know what the frick you are arguing for or against in this thread
besides titles not counting in a differentiation discussion involving the single most important individual position in a team sport
what about career wins? Brady is #1 with 251 and is 65 ahead of #2 Manning
what about career win percentage? Brady is #4 all time with .754
so team success doesnt count in leading a team from its most important position
ok I guess?
so we rank based on passing ability and thus stats it is - and Brady owns all of the key passing stats categories by far and away
so WTF are we talking about?
but I dont know what the frick you are arguing for or against in this thread
besides titles not counting in a differentiation discussion involving the single most important individual position in a team sport
what about career wins? Brady is #1 with 251 and is 65 ahead of #2 Manning
what about career win percentage? Brady is #4 all time with .754
so team success doesnt count in leading a team from its most important position
ok I guess?
so we rank based on passing ability and thus stats it is - and Brady owns all of the key passing stats categories by far and away
so WTF are we talking about?
Posted on 2/12/24 at 3:10 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
On defense, the QB position is meaningless…and, again, NE had one of the best most consistent defenses in history over 2 decades.
quote:
Maybe on offense. I'd argue the Center and O-Line collectively matter more (which NE had one of, if not the best, O-Line in history over the span of 2 decades).
ehh no, they had decent OL through the years but the best OL coach in NFL history in Dante Scarnecchia
there are only two All Pro OL in the BB era, Logan Mankins in 2010 and Matt Light in 2017
they had some really good defensive players, team chemistry and best defensive coach in NFL History as their HC
in the BB era thus far the defensive HOF are Revis (played 16 games in NE), Ty Law, Junior Seau (38 games in NE), Richard Seymour
now to be fair they had a bunch of single All Pro seasons out of Stephen Gilmore, asante samuels, mayo, vrabel, marcus jones, rodney harrison etc but the sum of the units were definitely better than their parts
Posted on 2/12/24 at 3:12 pm to supatigah
team success is only a SMALL metric of QB success when you are conflating defense, coaching, the running game, WR quality, and O-line protection.
Stop and actually think about it. How do you measure how well a QB performs, by QB performance? And even that is dependent on coaching, the running game, WR quality, and O-line protection.
The fact is, Brady played substantially worse in the playoffs compared to the regular season compared to his peers. His production dropped while his teams’ defensive play elevated.
That's a statically fact.
Stop and actually think about it. How do you measure how well a QB performs, by QB performance? And even that is dependent on coaching, the running game, WR quality, and O-line protection.
The fact is, Brady played substantially worse in the playoffs compared to the regular season compared to his peers. His production dropped while his teams’ defensive play elevated.
That's a statically fact.
This post was edited on 2/12/24 at 3:17 pm
Posted on 2/12/24 at 3:16 pm to supatigah
At the same point ih their careers just before Manning retired, Brady had TWICE as many pro-bowlers on his teams than Manning. Did you even know that? Twice as many.
And you know what positions? O-Line, and on defense, especially the D-line..
What are the most important positions to a teams success outside of a QB? If you answer honestly, you’ll have to concede the fact Brady truly played on stacked teams with the GOAT coach.
And you know what positions? O-Line, and on defense, especially the D-line..
What are the most important positions to a teams success outside of a QB? If you answer honestly, you’ll have to concede the fact Brady truly played on stacked teams with the GOAT coach.
This post was edited on 2/12/24 at 5:12 pm
Posted on 2/12/24 at 3:18 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
That was, by far, the most loaded offense outside of QB, in the NFL that year. Brady put up the same yardage as Jameis Winston (and Winston had LESS talent around him) in the same offense
ok? so the QB doesnt matter? could anyone in the NFL have done what 44y/o Tom Brady did if they played in that TB offense? Ian Book started a game for the Saints in 2021. How would he have done in that loaded TB offense? Come on UK
Posted on 2/12/24 at 3:21 pm to supatigah
quote:
ok? so the QB doesnt matter?
I didn't say that and you know I didn't. What I did say was that Tampa Bay was so stacked that a bad QB dominated, therefore, QB production on an even more stacked version of that team shouldn't be evidence of supreme dominance by a QB. It's moreso evidence of the stacked team.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 3:30 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
The fact is, Brady played substantially worse in the playoffs compared to the regular season compared to his peers. His production dropped while his teams’ defensive play elevated.
and yet somehow he won 5 SB MVPs and had his best statistical performance in a SB loss where the NE Defense shite the bed
quote:
team success is only a SMALL metric of QB success when you are conflating defense, coaching, the running game, WR quality, and O-line protection.
are you missing the overwhelming Brady stats arguments I have made as well?
quote:
Stop and actually think about it. How do you measure how well a QB performs, by QB performance? And even that is dependent on coaching, the running game, WR quality, and O-line protection.
ok so what is your argument? I tried to cover winning, stats, leadership, longevity and brady runs away from the field in every one of those
a separate question:
if Mahomes never plays again after last night where is he in this All Time Great QB argument?
Posted on 2/12/24 at 3:36 pm to RB10
He changed the game and was ahead of his time when offenses were still in the stone age of run heavy offenses.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 3:37 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
I didn't say that and you know I didn't. What I did say was that Tampa Bay was so stacked that a bad QB dominated, therefore, QB production on an even more stacked version of that team shouldn't be evidence of supreme dominance by a QB. It's moreso evidence of the stacked team.
a bad QB? damn son that is cold
that was the #3 all time single season passing yardage total
that was a stacked TB team true, but we have seen stacked teams falter due to lackluster QB play
our beloved Saints come immediately to mind
Posted on 2/12/24 at 3:39 pm to supatigah
This isn't hard.
Mahomes has played the position of QB higher than Brady or any other QB ever for a sustained period of time.
Brady played it at a high level for longer than any QB ever
If there was a magical world where I told you starting right now, your team could get a QB that'll give you 6 years of Mahomes play or 22 years of Brady's play, you take Brady and there's really no logical argument otherwise.
if I told you can get the best sustained 6 year period of QB play, you take Mahomes over Brady, and there's really no logical argument otherwise.
Mahomes has played the position of QB higher than Brady or any other QB ever for a sustained period of time.
Brady played it at a high level for longer than any QB ever
If there was a magical world where I told you starting right now, your team could get a QB that'll give you 6 years of Mahomes play or 22 years of Brady's play, you take Brady and there's really no logical argument otherwise.
if I told you can get the best sustained 6 year period of QB play, you take Mahomes over Brady, and there's really no logical argument otherwise.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 3:39 pm to supatigah
quote:
and yet somehow he won 5 SB MVPs and had his best statistical performance in a SB loss where the NE Defense shite the bed
Reread what you just said slowly
quote:
his best statistical performance in a SB loss
quote:
where the NE Defense shite the bed
quote:
his best
quote:
loss
quote:
because defense
Explain to me how his worst performances were wins again?
Posted on 2/12/24 at 3:40 pm to St Augustine
quote:
But he can thank Chris Jones for this Super Bowl. Him wrecking souls was the one constant while mahomes and the offense looked like arse for a giant chunk of the season
Their offense looked like arse for a large chunk of the game last night, as well.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 3:40 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
So how do we factor things like the Chief's OL all getting injured prior to the SB against Tampa Bay or Dee Ford jumping offsides to give the Pats life in the AFCCG? You can probably do similar things for Brady, Manning, etc.
Correct. The QB gets too much credit and too much blame. As great as Mahomes is, the Chiefs defense have been the real stars the past two games. Just as the Pat's defense were during Bradys first couple rings. It's kind of a silly discussion to have for football, IMO, but I get why we have to do it.
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