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Posted on 12/28/23 at 8:55 am to Fun Bunch
.
This post was edited on 12/28/23 at 8:56 am
Posted on 12/28/23 at 8:56 am to beerJeep
quote:
Slavery was a large reason for the south leaving the union.
The war itself, however, was not fought over slavery. It was fought to retain the union. Ending slavery was not a war aim until the emancipation proclamation.
To say the north fought to end slavery is laughable considering the north continued to have slaves until the ratification of the 13th post war. In addition, the final slaves would not be freed for nearly a year post 13th ratification, as it took a while to get out WEST to the INDIAN TERRITORIES, where the last slaves were actually freed.
All of the words and it still comes down to
The south leaves because of slavery -> the union fights to keep them as part of the U.S.
Therefore the root cause of the war is slavery. This isn’t hard folks
Posted on 12/28/23 at 8:57 am to rmnldr
quote:
The point of the thread is that Nikki Haley is a hypocrite and is being killed in local and national media about this.
I really dislike her, but what about this topic makes her a hypocrite?
Posted on 12/28/23 at 8:58 am to rmnldr
The issue of centralized power vs state sovereignty was nothing new in 1861. Just 30 years before the war, the nullification crisis came pretty close to resulting in an aggressive stance by the federal government. That was over tariffs that some powerful southerners believed put their regional economy at a distinct disadvantage to the northern region. These kinds of squabbles were ongoing from the time when the viability of the Articles of Confederation were being debated at the Constitutional Convention. A pressure cooker had been building for 60 years and the issue of slavery became the main point of contention during the 1850s. But it wasn’t noble or benevolent sentiment that made it the focus. It was the northern states industrial/manufacturing class strategy to balance the congressional power that had been dominated by the south for decades. They couldn’t compete with free labor as they paid wages to the European immigrant class. They were at a distinct disadvantage. The south controlled the economy. The only way to break that was to end the source of advantage. There were a lot of pre-cursers that were kindling to the inferno that occured in 61. The 3/5 compromise, The Missouri Compromise, The Kansas-Nebraska Act are all good to read about to get a better understanding of the sentiments of both northern and southern power brokers.
In the end, it had no where else to land but squarely on the issue of slavery. The southern states aristocracy held dearly to the idea of states sovereignty because it was their avenue to hold on to a favorable centralized power structure. The northern states elite class felt they were at a disadvantage economically as a result of slavery and needed the institution destroyed.
Yes, the main point of contention became slavery because it was central in the difference between 2 regional economies. However, the sparks that fueled the eventual inferno began far before the issue of slavery became the main point. It was the influx of large waves of wage demanding immigrants in the 30s, 40s, and 50s to the industrial north population centers that made the issue of slavery tantamount to its economy. Eventually resulting in slavery being the catalyst to conflict.
In the end, it had no where else to land but squarely on the issue of slavery. The southern states aristocracy held dearly to the idea of states sovereignty because it was their avenue to hold on to a favorable centralized power structure. The northern states elite class felt they were at a disadvantage economically as a result of slavery and needed the institution destroyed.
Yes, the main point of contention became slavery because it was central in the difference between 2 regional economies. However, the sparks that fueled the eventual inferno began far before the issue of slavery became the main point. It was the influx of large waves of wage demanding immigrants in the 30s, 40s, and 50s to the industrial north population centers that made the issue of slavery tantamount to its economy. Eventually resulting in slavery being the catalyst to conflict.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 8:58 am to coldbeerfan
quote:
the victor gets to write the history rather it's factual or not.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 8:59 am to Cuz413
Again, you may be right. I don't think you are reading my posts.
This has nothing to do with the veracity of Haley's assessment.
It has to do with politics, and framing it in this way in 2023 when you are trying to attract centrist Republicans, Independents and Dems to your side to make some headway.
This question is easy as frick to answer and she failed miserably, as she routinely does when asked a non scripted question.
I know you are likely too emotional about this issue to understand that.
This question was a layup that she clanked off the rim and the ball landed in the 18th row
This has nothing to do with the veracity of Haley's assessment.
It has to do with politics, and framing it in this way in 2023 when you are trying to attract centrist Republicans, Independents and Dems to your side to make some headway.
This question is easy as frick to answer and she failed miserably, as she routinely does when asked a non scripted question.
I know you are likely too emotional about this issue to understand that.
This question was a layup that she clanked off the rim and the ball landed in the 18th row
This post was edited on 12/28/23 at 9:00 am
Posted on 12/28/23 at 9:00 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
I really dislike her, but what about this topic makes her a hypocrite?
She took down the SC battle flag after the Michael Brown BLM shite. Directly tying it to black nationalism/slavery/reparations/etc
Now to say that the civil war is wasn’t caused by slavery is hypocritical
Posted on 12/28/23 at 9:01 am to rmnldr
quote:
The south leaves because of slavery -> the union fights to keep them as part of the U.S.
Therefore the root cause of the war is slavery. This isn’t hard folks
No. The root cause of the war was preserving the union. Good ole Abe even said if keeping slavery where it was meant retaining the union, he would.
He was only interested in preserving the union.
That.
Is.
All.
Preserving the union is why the war was fought.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 9:01 am to El Magnifico
quote:
Not get fricked by Northern tariffs
Posted on 12/28/23 at 9:01 am to rmnldr
quote:
You’re willing to agree that secession was about slavery
I mentioned that before anyone else in this thread.
quote:
So without secession (which was about slavery) you don’t have a Fort Sumter attack.
Without Lincoln purposefully resupplying the Fort, there is no attack.
Secession does not have to have a war.
The South offered to pay their share of the national debt as well as their half of federal assets in CSA territories.
quote:
Therefore, slavery caused the civil war.
By that logic, the North instituted slavery first, therefore they are the cause of the war.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 9:01 am to Dirk Dawgler
quote:
Dirk Dawgler
Good stuff.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 9:02 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
If not for Northern attempts to sublimate Southern rights in accordance with the Constitution, there would have been no secession and war.
Who was it before the war that had the legal right to go into the others states to retrieve lost property with no due process?
The Fugitive Slave act was a huge over-reach on States Rights and led to a larger abolishiment movement. The South wanted "Their rights" to be slavery in the new territories. Without this they knew they would slowly lose the majorites in the Houses and the SCOTUS. They knew the writting was on the wall. They South made two fatal errors before the war ever began:
1. They over valued King Cotton. They embargoed their own damn revenue source. Hoping to force alliances by withholding cotton to the Euro powers backfired. Millions of pounds of cotton rotted in te fields.
2. They underestimated the willingness of the North to fight for the "****".
If the South had been smarter and more patient the outcome would have been much different. South Carolina screwed up biggly and started it all before the South could better prepare.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 9:02 am to Cuz413
Main reasons for that war:
South was getting raped by unconstitutional taxation
South needed manpower to work cotton fields to maintain industry
North did not want the South to maintain economic momentum
* Hollywood wants you to believe the war was over racism
South was getting raped by unconstitutional taxation
South needed manpower to work cotton fields to maintain industry
North did not want the South to maintain economic momentum
* Hollywood wants you to believe the war was over racism
Posted on 12/28/23 at 9:02 am to rmnldr
To me it's always been a little of the "chicken or the egg" topic. It was about "states rights", however, states rights to do or for what?
Welp, slavery mainly.
Welp, slavery mainly.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 9:03 am to Cuz413
quote:
By that logic, the North instituted slavery first, therefore they are the cause of the war.
Okay? As I’ve stated many times before. I don’t care north or south. Both are to blame.
If that’s the line you want to go with then I support it
Posted on 12/28/23 at 9:04 am to coldbeerfan
Folks don’t like hearing this because …
It clashes with what they’ve been taught their whole lives.
It’s right, they know it, but they don’t want to admit it least they be branded a confederate sympathizer & a raaaaaacist.
It clashes with what they’ve been taught their whole lives.
It’s right, they know it, but they don’t want to admit it least they be branded a confederate sympathizer & a raaaaaacist.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 9:04 am to rmnldr
Its utterly amazing how much this board can confuse the actual issue here.
The issue isn't whether there was any accuracy to her answer
The issue isn't whether there was any accuracy to her answer
Posted on 12/28/23 at 9:05 am to goatmilker
quote:
goatmilker
Boom! Great response
Posted on 12/28/23 at 9:05 am to Bayou
The South exported more cotton over seas than to the North. The South was still making bank.
This post was edited on 12/28/23 at 9:06 am
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