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re: Is the Christian God the same God of Judaism?
Posted on 11/25/23 at 5:30 am to FooManChoo
Posted on 11/25/23 at 5:30 am to FooManChoo
quote:
The Christian teaching is that God is one in nature but three in persons. Christians see a triune God that is one in essence in three persons.
quote:
Again I'll say that the Christian teaching is that God is three in persons and one in essence or nature. It's a mystery in the sense that there is no analogy to the Trinity in our human experience, which is why attempts to describe the Trinity with eggs, water, or other things wind up in heresy.
Very understandable and succinct explanation for that which is difficult for me as a believer to comprehend. Thanks.
This post was edited on 11/25/23 at 5:34 am
Posted on 11/25/23 at 7:34 am to 4cubbies
quote:
This question was posed to me today.
Why?
Posted on 11/25/23 at 9:58 am to 4cubbies
Jews don't accept Jesus as divine. Jesus was God manifested in flesh. In order for fallen man to be in direct commune with God, a perfect sacrifice has to be offered. In the old testament it was sheep, goats, etc. which people brought brought the Temple priest to be sacrificed. Jesus was was perfect because of his divinity(no sin). In the Temple was the Holiest of Holies where God's presence
dwelled in the Ark of the Covenant, it was seperated by a veil. Only priest could enter.
When Jesus died on the cross, the veil was ripped. There no longer is anything between man's access to God.
Jesus was the fulfillment of Old Testament (Jewish) prophecy.
dwelled in the Ark of the Covenant, it was seperated by a veil. Only priest could enter.
When Jesus died on the cross, the veil was ripped. There no longer is anything between man's access to God.
Jesus was the fulfillment of Old Testament (Jewish) prophecy.
Posted on 11/25/23 at 10:02 am to UGA fan n NC
quote:
Again I'll say that the Christian teaching is that God is three in persons and one in essence or nature. It's a mystery in the sense that there is no analogy to the Trinity in our human experience, which is why attempts to describe the Trinity with eggs, water, or other things wind up in heresy.
I don't agree with the Trinitarian formula. God is one. It's not hard to understand. Just as I am a father to my son, a son to my mom, and a brother to my brother, yet I am one person.
Same difference. Different manifestations of one God.
The Father in Creation. The son in Atonement. Holy Spirit working his will after Jesus.
Jesus said it himself, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.
Posted on 11/25/23 at 10:05 am to yakster
quote:
If they don’t accept Christ as their savior they will go to hell just like anyone else.
Posted on 11/25/23 at 10:06 am to UGA fan n NC
quote:
Again I'll say that the Christian teaching is that God is three in persons and one in essence or nature. It's a mystery in the sense that there is no analogy to the Trinity in our human experience, which is why attempts to describe the Trinity with eggs, water, or other things wind up in heresy.
I don't agree with the Trinitarian formula. God is one. It's not hard to understand. Just as I am a father to my son, a son to my mom, and a brother to my brother, yet I am one person.
Same difference. Different manifestations of one God.
The Father in Creation. The son in Atonement. Holy Spirit working his will after Jesus.
Jesus said it himself, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.
Posted on 11/25/23 at 10:27 am to lake chuck fan
quote:Doesn’t make much sense for the Father to be talking about Himself in saying He is well pleased in the Son at His baptism, nor for the Son to pray to Himself (the Father) before His arrest. It’s also quite strange for the Son to ask why He has forsaken Himself when He asks that of the Father on the cross.
I don't agree with the Trinitarian formula. God is one. It's not hard to understand. Just as I am a father to my son, a son to my mom, and a brother to my brother, yet I am one person.
Same difference. Different manifestations of one God.
The Father in Creation. The son in Atonement. Holy Spirit working his will after Jesus.
Jesus said it himself, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.
As difficult as it is to understand the concept of three persons sharing one divine nature, it makes even less sense for the Father, Son, and Spirit to be one person.
ETA:
God is also not a father exactly like we are fathers, nor a son exactly like we are sons. The Father didn't create through sexual union and the Son wasn't born of a woman prior to His incarnation (and even at His incarnation, He wasn't the product of sexual union). The Son is begotten of the Father eternally (He had no beginning), and the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son eternally, so that all three persons have a co-equality and existence in a way that we do not have with our fathers or sons.
This post was edited on 11/25/23 at 10:56 am
Posted on 11/25/23 at 10:30 am to OysterPoBoy
quote:
So are the Jews going to hell? We know the Muslims are.
And afterlife where you’re constantly surrounded by 72 chattering women certainly sounds like Hell to me.
Posted on 11/25/23 at 10:57 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Doesn’t make much sense for the Father to be talking about Himself in saying He is well pleased in the Son at His baptism, nor for the Son to pray to Himself (the Father) before His arrest. It’s also quite strange for the Son to ask why He has forsaken Himself when He asks that of the Father on the cross
The flesh crying out to the spirit. Makes more sense to me than trying to explain three seperate persons are singular.
Similar to baptism. Jesus said baptize in the NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Read in ACTS how the disciples baptized. In the name of Jesus. My belief is when I arrive in heaven (hopefully I do), I will see Jesus. Not 3 separate persons.
Personally, I don't think it's a salvific issue. You do you.
Posted on 11/25/23 at 11:01 am to FooManChoo
quote:
It's a mystery in the sense that there is no analogy to the Trinity in our human experience
I think there is. I realize that I could be completely wrong, but, hear me out. I’m interested to hear your thoughts on this perspective.
Genesis 1:26 (NASB95): ?Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
We are triune beings- consisting of mind, body and spirit. I’m not saying that we are gods, but that we are created in the image of God. Your thoughts? (Please, be gentle)
Posted on 11/25/23 at 11:02 am to Proximo
quote:I'm curious what is so funny about that statement.quote:
If they don’t accept Christ as their savior they will go to hell just like anyone else.
If Jesus is the only way to be saved, as He, Himself has said, then those who reject Him must by logical necessity not be saved. The Jews reject Jesus as Messiah (Savior) as do the Muslims, so if Jesus' words are true, they are damned if they do not repent of their unbelief and put their trust in His work on the cross for forgiveness of their sins.
Posted on 11/25/23 at 11:07 am to Bulldogblitz
quote:
Why?
Idk. I was telling my brother about a Muslim woman in my cohort who is from Jerusalem. We started talking about Palestinians and Jews in the region and then he posed that question.
Posted on 11/25/23 at 11:16 am to lake chuck fan
quote:The Spirit is a person in the orthodox view of the trinity, so it would make sense for Christ to cry out to the Spirit, though that isn't what the text is saying. Jesus prays to the Father in Matthew 26, and He cries out to the Father in Luke 23. If God merely manifests in different ways, then it would make no sense for Him to cry out to Himself.
The flesh crying out to the spirit. Makes more sense to me than trying to explain three seperate persons are singular.
quote:The singular name of the Father, Son, and Spirit is a great proof text to show that there is certainly a oneness within the Godhead. What you are ignoring is how there is also differentiation between the persons. The way to reconcile the unity and trinity is in the orthodox doctrine of the trinity that states that God is one in nature and three in person.
Similar to baptism. Jesus said baptize in the NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Read in ACTS how the disciples baptized. In the name of Jesus.
quote:When Jesus ascended into Heaven, He sat down at the right hand of the Father and intercedes with the Father for us (Rom. 8:34). That doesn't make sense if the Father and the Son are the same person.
My belief is when I arrive in heaven (hopefully I do), I will see Jesus. Not 3 separate persons.
quote:Yes, I do. There is a reason why the first few hundred years of church history were spent hashing out the nature of God, because it is a critically important issue. It's one thing to be like the thief on the cross and simply be ignorant of the exact relationship that Christ has with the Father, but it's another thing to hear the truth of the tri-unity of God and reject it outright. Now that you have heard the truth of the matter, I urge you to believe it as truth.
Personally, I don't think it's a salvific issue. You do you.
Posted on 11/25/23 at 11:34 am to rebeloke
quote:
The correct answer is yes.
Correct, but the Jews are just blind to God's fullness at the moment as a whole...blindness IN PART has happened to Israel until the fullness of the church happens in the Rapture then at the shout of an Archangel, it will awaken Israel as the Ecclesia Church is raptured.
Posted on 11/25/23 at 11:50 am to Prodigal Son
We are created in the image of us so that we are able to commune - have a relationship - with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit
There is nothing in creation outside of us who bear the image of the Holy Trinity...attempts to find otherwise are folly.
We are not gods but redeemed. Co-heirs, children of God for all things will return to Him for all is rightfully His.
There is nothing in creation outside of us who bear the image of the Holy Trinity...attempts to find otherwise are folly.
We are not gods but redeemed. Co-heirs, children of God for all things will return to Him for all is rightfully His.
Posted on 11/25/23 at 11:51 am to Prodigal Son
quote:May God forgive me if I am not gentle with my brothers and sisters in the faith. I want to be firm about the truth about God but I don't want to harm my brothers in the faith at the same time. Hopefully I am not doing that.
(Please, be gentle)
quote:I agree that we are created in the image of God, but we are not the exact image of God (like the Son is as stated in Col. 1:15-16), even prior to the fall. There are communicable attributes and incommunicable attributes that God has, and God has vested humanity with communicable attributes like love, goodness, and kindness, yet has not vested us with incommunicable attributes like His aseity, omnipotence, or omnipresence.
I think there is. I realize that I could be completely wrong, but, hear me out. I’m interested to hear your thoughts on this perspective.
Genesis 1:26 (NASB95): ?Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
We are triune beings- consisting of mind, body and spirit. I’m not saying that we are gods, but that we are created in the image of God. Your thoughts?
While there are examples of unity and trinity in certain senses in our experience, there is no exact analogy to God in our experience. One of the reasons for this is that God is simple rather than complex, meaning He is not made up of parts, and God is fully God in all three of His persons.
In the example of mind, body, and spirit, our mind is part of who we are but not all of who we are, and it is the same with our body and spirit; those three things are parts of our singular being but one part can exist without the others. However, the Father is not merely a part of God, nor is the Son merely a part of God, nor the Spirit merely a part of God, as all three are fully God, as God doesn't consist of parts nor consist separately from the other persons. This analogy seems to be consistent with the view called partialism.
Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding the analogy, though.
Posted on 11/25/23 at 12:20 pm to FooManChoo
Thanks. I agree with you, as usual. My analogy is not that we are an exact replica of God, or that our existence as triune beings can accurately and/or completely describe the nature of God; but that we are created in His image, and that our existence as triune beings can offer us a mere glimpse into the doctrine of the Trinity. Kind of like how a two dimensional photograph attempts to describe a three dimensional world. I suppose what I’m saying is that whenever someone has trouble understanding the concept of the Trinity, need look no further than their own existence.
Posted on 11/25/23 at 2:03 pm to Prodigal Son
quote:
I suppose what I’m saying is that whenever someone has trouble understanding the concept of the Trinity, need look no further than their own existence.
I use the H2O analogy...water, steam, and ice are three distinct manifestations but in their essence, they are all H2O...
Posted on 11/25/23 at 2:15 pm to 4cubbies
The Old Testament is the Bible of Judaism. Of course it’s same God. The ONLY difference is Judaism recognizes Jesus as prophet and not the messiah. Christians recognize Jesus as messiah and added the New Testament books to the Judaism Bible.
Posted on 11/25/23 at 2:50 pm to Crimson1st
quote:I understand the desire to do that, but as I said previously, pretty much all analogies used tend to do more harm than good in explaining the Trinity.
I use the H2O analogy...water, steam, and ice are three distinct manifestations but in their essence, they are all H2O..
The example of water (water, ice, and steam) actually teaches the ancient heresy of Sabellianism, otherwise known as Modalism. This heresy teaches that God is essentially one person that manifests himself in three different ways at different times; sometimes as the Father, sometimes as the Son, and sometimes as the Spirit, just as water cannot be water and ice at the same time, or ice and steam at the same time. A few folks in this very thread actually seem to understand God in this very way.
This post was edited on 11/25/23 at 2:51 pm
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