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I'm pro-Riley, but a lot of coaches could do what he has done at Oklahoma
Posted on 11/18/21 at 9:47 am
Posted on 11/18/21 at 9:47 am
He was gifted an elite program already on top, similar to Ryan Day. That doesn't happen very often. Rarely does a coach go out on top. (Jimbo Fisher was in a similar, but not as great, situation at FSU)
Under Stoops:
2015: 11-2 (Big 12 Champs, Orange Bowl loss) Final AP Ranking 5th
2016: 11-2 (Big 12 champs, Sugar Bowl win) Final AP Ranking 5th
Under Riley
2017: 12-2 (Big 12 Champs, Rose Bowl loss) Final AP Rank 3rd
2018: 12-2 (Big 12 Champs, Orange Bowl loss) Final AP Rank 4th
2019: 12-2 (Big 12 Champs, Peach Bowl loss) Final AP Rank 7th
2020: 9-2 (2nd in Big 12, Cotton Bowl win) Final AP Rank 6th
2021: TBD
So Riley is a great coach and LSU would be lucky to have him. But how many coaches in the country could have created those exact results given that same situation?
I think quite a few.
Many different variables, including luck and timing, land different coaches in different situations.
If Riley's first job was at Baylor, how would he have done?
If Lane Kiffin inherited Oklahoma, how would he have done?
This is not a knock on Riley, because he would be my top choice, but just a reality check.
Under Stoops:
2015: 11-2 (Big 12 Champs, Orange Bowl loss) Final AP Ranking 5th
2016: 11-2 (Big 12 champs, Sugar Bowl win) Final AP Ranking 5th
Under Riley
2017: 12-2 (Big 12 Champs, Rose Bowl loss) Final AP Rank 3rd
2018: 12-2 (Big 12 Champs, Orange Bowl loss) Final AP Rank 4th
2019: 12-2 (Big 12 Champs, Peach Bowl loss) Final AP Rank 7th
2020: 9-2 (2nd in Big 12, Cotton Bowl win) Final AP Rank 6th
2021: TBD
So Riley is a great coach and LSU would be lucky to have him. But how many coaches in the country could have created those exact results given that same situation?
I think quite a few.
Many different variables, including luck and timing, land different coaches in different situations.
If Riley's first job was at Baylor, how would he have done?
If Lane Kiffin inherited Oklahoma, how would he have done?
This is not a knock on Riley, because he would be my top choice, but just a reality check.
14
Posted on 11/18/21 at 9:48 am to Bjorn Cyborg
To me it'd be fun to see reeling in 5*'s QB's year after year mixed with the LA recruiting of freak athletes.
Posted on 11/18/21 at 9:48 am to Bjorn Cyborg
A lot of coaches could have had back-to-back Heisman winners?!?
I think not
I think not
Posted on 11/18/21 at 9:53 am to ipodking
quote:
A lot of coaches could have had back-to-back Heisman winners?!?
Riley didn't win the Heisman any more than Orgeron won the Heisman.
Posted on 11/18/21 at 10:14 am to Bjorn Cyborg
There is one key piece of information you are leaving out. In 2014 Oklahoma went 8-5. Stoops made a change at OC at the end of the season...bringing in a young guy from ECU named Lincoln Riley. Thereafter OU went 11-1 and 10-2 the next two seasons.
So yes, he did "inherit" and elite program. But he also played a big role in getting that program back to elite status before taking over as HC.
As for LSU, the program is not completely broken. LSU is one of only three schools in the nation who have signed a top 5 recruiting class each of the last 3 seasons (the others being UGA and Alabama). 2 weeks ago LSU held the #2 team in the country to the lowest point total they've scored in a game since the NC game at the end of the 2018 season. And they did so with a defense comprised of numerous second team players. LSU also lost that game, in part, because they have a first time OC who has struggled this season.
The results for the LSU program collapsed the MOMENT the Ed Orgeron began fully dictating the on field approach. He stayed out of Aranda's way from 17-19. Once Aranda left Ed implemented HIS style of defense and immediately turned a program that had consistently produced good to great defenses for 20 years in to one that had one of the worst defenses in the nation and the worst in school history. This year wasn't all that much better with Ed dictating the approach, until injuries and his firing forced Ed to abandon his defense. IMMEDIATELY, LSU's returned to looking like one of the best defensive teams in the nation.
Orgeron is a complete idiot when it comes to dictating the on field gameplay/approach. His teams are much better the LESS he is involved in that aspect. That's why he failed miserably at Ole Miss and why NO ONE but LSU wanted to hire him as their HC after that. HE is the anchor dragging the program down. But the program is not dead. So it is entirely conceivable that someone who actually knows what they are doing could step in an quickly right the ship.
So yes, he did "inherit" and elite program. But he also played a big role in getting that program back to elite status before taking over as HC.
As for LSU, the program is not completely broken. LSU is one of only three schools in the nation who have signed a top 5 recruiting class each of the last 3 seasons (the others being UGA and Alabama). 2 weeks ago LSU held the #2 team in the country to the lowest point total they've scored in a game since the NC game at the end of the 2018 season. And they did so with a defense comprised of numerous second team players. LSU also lost that game, in part, because they have a first time OC who has struggled this season.
The results for the LSU program collapsed the MOMENT the Ed Orgeron began fully dictating the on field approach. He stayed out of Aranda's way from 17-19. Once Aranda left Ed implemented HIS style of defense and immediately turned a program that had consistently produced good to great defenses for 20 years in to one that had one of the worst defenses in the nation and the worst in school history. This year wasn't all that much better with Ed dictating the approach, until injuries and his firing forced Ed to abandon his defense. IMMEDIATELY, LSU's returned to looking like one of the best defensive teams in the nation.
Orgeron is a complete idiot when it comes to dictating the on field gameplay/approach. His teams are much better the LESS he is involved in that aspect. That's why he failed miserably at Ole Miss and why NO ONE but LSU wanted to hire him as their HC after that. HE is the anchor dragging the program down. But the program is not dead. So it is entirely conceivable that someone who actually knows what they are doing could step in an quickly right the ship.
Posted on 11/18/21 at 11:08 am to Alt26
Prior to that 8-5 you you refer to, they went:
11-2
10-3
10-3
12-2
It's not like the program was in the dumps and Riley resurrected it. They had one average season in 7 years.
11-2
10-3
10-3
12-2
It's not like the program was in the dumps and Riley resurrected it. They had one average season in 7 years.
Posted on 11/18/21 at 11:08 am to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
Riley didn't win the Heisman any more than Orgeron won the Heisman.
What?
Posted on 11/18/21 at 11:09 am to Bjorn Cyborg
You realize Riley reenergized their program right? Even before he took over as HC.
No, a lot of coaches could not have done what he has done.
No, a lot of coaches could not have done what he has done.
Posted on 11/18/21 at 11:10 am to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
Riley didn't win the Heisman any more than Orgeron won the Heisman.
No coach wins the Heisman, but Riley is OU’s Joe Brady and he’s developing QBs out of high school and not relying on transfers.
Posted on 11/18/21 at 11:12 am to Bjorn Cyborg
Then you need a reality check just as many coaches could tear a good situation to the ground which has been proven countless times again. Riley is 38 years old. He's growing and learning as a coach yet he's still sustained OU at the top. He's also produced elite QBs every year that were heisman winners/contenders and all have been very productive in the NFL. He turned Jalen Hurts into a competent passer that has done a decent transition to the NFL. That speaks volumes at his coaching ability at such a young age.
Where will he be in 10 years with Saban retired and the west to himself? How much would he have grown? Scary. Woody is not stupid and sees the value in what this guy can do.
Where will he be in 10 years with Saban retired and the west to himself? How much would he have grown? Scary. Woody is not stupid and sees the value in what this guy can do.
This post was edited on 11/18/21 at 11:16 am
Posted on 11/18/21 at 11:23 am to deuce985
quote:
Then you need a reality check
I've already stated that I'm pro-Riley. I just think that coaches that are gifted programs already on top should be scrutinized a bit.
Ryan Day and Lincoln Riley haven't built anything.
They both could turn out to be the greatest coaches of their generation, or not.
The actual, proven, great coaches like Saban, Urban, Dabo and Bob Stoops, took over bad programs and built them up.
Posted on 11/18/21 at 11:25 am to olgoi khorkhoi
quote:
but Riley is OU’s Joe Brady and he’s developing QBs out of high school and not relying on transfers.
Is this some kind of troll? Riley is the King of Transfer quarterbacks.
Posted on 11/18/21 at 11:27 am to Bjorn Cyborg
Agree.
Stoops had it set up to where the next coach would have a significant talent advantage in most of his games.
In the games where the talent is closer, Riley wins more than he loses but he hasn't been dominant. His most impressive win may be his 2nd game ever as a HC - winning 31-16 at #2 Ohio State. But later that year, there's a 38-31 home loss to Iowa State (8-5 finish) and escapes of 62-52 at #11 Oklahoma State and 42-35 at Kansas State (8-5 finish). The points are impressive but the points allowed don't scream "domination".
The following season (2018) saw a 48-45 loss, and wins of 51-46, 48-47, 55-40, 59-56. Only two of those five were ranked.
They played better D in 2019, but still had a 48-41 loss at Kansas State (8-5 finish) and a 42-41 win over Iowa State (7-6 finish) and gave up 49 in the 1st half to the tGOAT college team, LSU. Their two wins over Baylor were by 3 and by 7 (in OT).
In 2020 he lost back to back games to Kansas State (4-6 finish) and Iowa State (9-3 finish), but won all the others including a 4OT win vs. Texas and then blew out a decimated Florida team in the bowl game.
This season he's won 5 games by a TD or less (one of those was 1-9 Tulane), and looked lost on offense vs. Baylor.
The combination of close wins and allowing a ton of points makes me not as high on Riley as most on this board.
Stoops had it set up to where the next coach would have a significant talent advantage in most of his games.
In the games where the talent is closer, Riley wins more than he loses but he hasn't been dominant. His most impressive win may be his 2nd game ever as a HC - winning 31-16 at #2 Ohio State. But later that year, there's a 38-31 home loss to Iowa State (8-5 finish) and escapes of 62-52 at #11 Oklahoma State and 42-35 at Kansas State (8-5 finish). The points are impressive but the points allowed don't scream "domination".
The following season (2018) saw a 48-45 loss, and wins of 51-46, 48-47, 55-40, 59-56. Only two of those five were ranked.
They played better D in 2019, but still had a 48-41 loss at Kansas State (8-5 finish) and a 42-41 win over Iowa State (7-6 finish) and gave up 49 in the 1st half to the tGOAT college team, LSU. Their two wins over Baylor were by 3 and by 7 (in OT).
In 2020 he lost back to back games to Kansas State (4-6 finish) and Iowa State (9-3 finish), but won all the others including a 4OT win vs. Texas and then blew out a decimated Florida team in the bowl game.
This season he's won 5 games by a TD or less (one of those was 1-9 Tulane), and looked lost on offense vs. Baylor.
The combination of close wins and allowing a ton of points makes me not as high on Riley as most on this board.
Posted on 11/18/21 at 11:54 am to RidiculousHype
There’s no debating he’s a great OC/QB coach. His defenses have cost him, there’s no debating that either.
Posted on 11/18/21 at 12:01 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
I'm pro-Riley, but a lot of coaches could do what he has done at Oklahoma
Posted on 11/18/21 at 12:14 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
We’ve seen plenty of coaches crater a great program. Larry Coker comes to mind. Ron Zook comes to mind. O comes to mind. Maintaining greatness for 5 seasons is very telling, and, no, not just any coach can do that. It actually doesn’t happen very often.
Posted on 11/18/21 at 12:20 pm to deuce985
quote:
Where will he be in 10 years with Saban retired and the west to himself?
The problem with "offensive innovators" is eventually defenses catch up.
Rileys' teams are soft. Not just soft, super soft. He has one of the most talented teams in the country, and they are a finesse team. I don't think he can win a slugfest vs a good good team.
Riley is 1-3 in bowl games with the only win vs Auburn, last season. His apex in the B12 is 2 losses a year, what will it be in the SEC?
Maybe he can evolve. But I don't think you want to pay 12m for a chance that a guy will improve.
Posted on 11/18/21 at 12:20 pm to Alt26
Everyone at Oklahoma knew how important Riley was and could not lose him under any circumstances. Which is why they made him their HC. Kinda how I feel we maybe should have done with Aranda.
Posted on 11/18/21 at 12:24 pm to tenacious
quote:
It actually doesn’t happen very often.
The opportunity rarely comes about. Great coaches almost never leave great situations.
A few of those:
Miles
Zook
Johnson, Erickson, Davis, Coker at Miami (All won national championships except Davis)
Day
Riley
Most of those kept things going.
Posted on 11/18/21 at 1:15 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
What’s his record vs top 10 teams?
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