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re: Why are tariffs and illegal acts overlooked as a cause of the civil war?

Posted on 7/12/20 at 8:29 am to
Posted by More&Les
Member since Nov 2012
14684 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 8:29 am to
quote:


I’m all for accurate history. You kind of counter this stance though by trying to paint the current Democratic Party as being responsible for everything that happened during the civil war


The current Democrat Party blames "the White Man" and "Racist Republicans" for all the "plight" of the "people of color" and are frankly trying to tare down this country from its founding...

A huge part of this is taring down Confederate monuments and all things Confederate because, you know, racism.

So, if were gonna talk about racism and slavery as the root of our country's evil then we need to talk about who the racist really were.
Posted by Auburn1968
NYC
Member since Mar 2019
26470 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 8:31 am to
quote:

To the victors go the spoils


Posted by Azkiger
Member since Nov 2016
28025 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 8:32 am to
quote:

bull·shite
/'bo?ol?shite/
VULGAR SLANG
noun
stupid or untrue talk or writing; nonsense.


Do you know what the definition of "or" is?

Hint: Its not synonymous with "and".
Posted by More&Les
Member since Nov 2012
14684 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 8:34 am to
quote:


To the victors go the spoils


quote:

The Morrill Tariff of 1861 was an increased import tariff in the United States, adopted on March 2, 1861, during the administration of President James Buchanan, a Democrat
Posted by More&Les
Member since Nov 2012
14684 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 8:37 am to
quote:


Do you know what the definition of "or" is?

Hint: Its not synonymous with "and".


This would be the first time, that Im aware of at least, on this board or anywhere that someone calling bullshite on some analogy or strawman is equal to "You are a Liar"

And then he says I double speak, lol
Posted by KiwiHead
Auckland, NZ
Member since Jul 2014
37514 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 8:40 am to
Parmen, maybe reading comprehension is not one of your strong suits. But Lincoln called for the 75,000 volunteers after Ft.Sumter . The whole habeus corpus thing happened after hostilities had started and was well underway....nice try though.

It reall was not tarrifs that got this whole thing brewing, but it was slavery and its expansion that set it off. The North which had been going through a population boom since about 1825 now had numbers on its side. The businessmen in New York, Boston and Philadelphia were not in a position to allow for slavery. It was bad business for their economic structure, couple this with the increase in Irish and German immigrants to the North and their migration to western lands like Kansas and Nebraska in particular and you start to see why the South was threatened. You should read up on Bloody Kansas leading up to the Civil War. Neither side was psrticularly angelic. You had Missourians from the Dixie Belt hopping over the border to vote in Kansan elections. You had New Englandets shipping immigrants and poor whites to Kansas.

Also the Fugitive Slave Act really pissed off Northern governors. You basically had repo agents moving with relative immunity through border states and kidnapping black people who lived there to bring them "home" to their loving masters.

The Western lands and their resistance to slavery boxed in the Southern Planter class that wanted to expand, but could not. They were gradually losing their influence in Congress in both the HOR and Senate because the new states coming in starting in the 1850's wanted nothing to do with slavery.

Don't kid yourself, slavery and its economic system was a big f-ing deal. The South needed to rid themselves of the Abolitionist North in order to expand its agricultural economy.
Posted by goatmilker
Castle Anthrax
Member since Feb 2009
76442 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 8:47 am to
The south was mostly poor because all the wealth was in less than 6% of the population and this population cared not a wit for economic diversity, innovation or mobility. In fact the southern economy was one of the least diverse economies that ever existed.

Overlooked downfall of the south was the slave owners misguided arrogance of King Cotton.
So how did these barons cash in on cotton as the CSA when cash was desperately needed?
Did they expand world markets?
No.
They used their only way to make money as a weapon to gain recognition around the globe. No recognition no cotton. Millions of pounds sat and rotted. Hoping rising prices and market panic would give them the results they needed.
Well the south just ended up pissing off many around the world and forcing world markets to find new sources which they did.
I believe the south ended up selling more Cotton to the north than anyone else.
Posted by LafTiger
Member since Dec 2008
1677 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 8:59 am to
So if party’s flipped in the last 150 years, ...Robert Byrd, Senator from West Virginia who died in 2010,...Hillary Clinton’s mentor....AND at one time a GRAND WIZARD of the KKK.....a Democrat!

The party’s flipped story, is just that. A story, not THE story.
Posted by Overbrook
Member since May 2013
6407 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 9:08 am to
Because they weren't the cause of the civil war, no matter how much neo-confederates try to rewrite history, treason and evil.
Posted by goatmilker
Castle Anthrax
Member since Feb 2009
76442 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 9:10 am to
quote:

tariffs that so impoverished the South


Can you show me the roaring southern economy outside the few slave owners before the war?
Can you show anything other than a single crop economy?
Can you show economic mobility and innovation in a economy that consisted of just one single product?
Can you suggest that having one product to sell is a good idea in the long term for any economy?


PS
To Overbrook:
No legal barrier to leaving the union does not equate to treason.
This post was edited on 7/12/20 at 9:14 am
Posted by More&Les
Member since Nov 2012
14684 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 9:25 am to
quote:


No legal barrier to leaving the union does not equate to treason.



I'll give you that it wasn't legally treason but in a real sense it was treasonous to the idea of "The United" States of America and attacking a US Military installation was an act of war in every sense
Posted by goatmilker
Castle Anthrax
Member since Feb 2009
76442 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 10:11 am to
quote:

t in a real sense it was treasonous to the idea of "The United" States of America


I won't argue the "real sense" vs "legally"

And I always bring up the poor and rash decision of Carolina to attack Ft Sumter when the South was not yet ready to. South Carolina forced everyone's hand.
Posted by Auburn1968
NYC
Member since Mar 2019
26470 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 10:19 am to
The South was rich in agriculture. Still is.

quote:

The main prewar agricultural products of the Confederate States were cotton, tobacco, and sugarcane, with hogs, cattle, grain and vegetable plots. Pre-war agricultural production estimated for the Southern states is as follows (Union states in parentheses for comparison): 1.7 million horses (3.4 million), 800,000 mules (100,000), 2.7 million dairy cows (5 million), 5 million sheep (14 million ...


LINK
Posted by goatmilker
Castle Anthrax
Member since Feb 2009
76442 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 10:43 am to
Very true.

But the 1850's boom in cotton prices made it the market to invest in which further limited diversity and innovation in the economy.

In other words the wealth of the south was buried deep. Two thirds of a slave owners wealth was in his slaves.
Posted by More&Les
Member since Nov 2012
14684 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 2:09 pm to
quote:


And I always bring up the poor and rash decision of Carolina to attack Ft Sumter when the South was not yet ready to. South Carolina forced everyone's hand.


The South wanted war and thought they would win...

quote:


The Southern lag in industrial development did not result from any inherent economic disadvantages. There was great wealth in the South, but it was primarily tied up in the slave economy. In 1860, the economic value of slaves in the United States exceeded the invested value of all of the nation's railroads, factories, and banks combined. On the eve of the Civil War, cotton prices were at an all-time high. The Confederate leaders were confident that the importance of cotton on the world market, particularly in England and France, would provide the South with the diplomatic and military assistance they needed for victory.


Oopsie-daisy
Posted by SidewalkTiger
Member since Dec 2019
70614 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 3:20 pm to
quote:

So if party’s flipped in the last 150 years, ...Robert Byrd, Senator from West Virginia who died in 2010,...Hillary Clinton’s mentor....AND at one time a GRAND WIZARD of the KKK.....a Democrat!

The party’s flipped story, is just that. A story, not THE story.


Look, I'm a conservative but constantly claiming that today's Democrats are the same group that pushed segregation and the like just makes us look uneducated.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138818 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 4:00 pm to
quote:

The Morrill Tariff of 1861
Was de facto Republican legislation. It was inconceivably inflammatory to declining intersectional relations when Buchanan signed it into law. Seven states had already seceded. It sealed Buchanan's fate as the worst POTUS in US history.
Posted by More&Les
Member since Nov 2012
14684 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 4:05 pm to
quote:


Look, I'm a conservative but constantly claiming that today's Democrats are the same group that pushed segregation and the like just makes us look uneducated.


You can easily tie todays Democrats to the 1960s and 1970s Democrats, hell their presidential candidate has been in office for 44 years and counts Byrd as a mentor, the 60/70s dems are easily connected to the 40/50s dems who all opposed civil rights and the generation before that was jim crow and kkk founding democrats, the generation before that was the Confederacy.

They blame you as a conservative, white man but its not your heritage, its theirs. Make them own it and stop being a pussy.
Posted by More&Les
Member since Nov 2012
14684 posts
Posted on 7/12/20 at 4:25 pm to
quote:


The Morrill Tariff of 1861
Was de facto Republican legislation. It was inconceivably inflammatory to declining intersectional relations when Buchanan signed it into law. Seven states had already seceded. It sealed Buchanan's fate as the worst POTUS in US history.


Maybe so, maybe not, I'm not familiar enough to have an opinion on that, but its NOT justification for the Confederacy which had already been formed NOR is justification for the war the Confederacy started within 3 weeks of its signing.
Posted by jerep
Member since May 2011
455 posts
Posted on 7/13/20 at 3:13 am to
quote:



I realize I'll be in the minority here but this is a tired argument.

Its ignorant to pretend that party ideologies haven't changed in the last 150 years.




Absolutely correct. But more than that, to believe that the names of political parties have been constant also demonstrates an ignorance of history.

Two examples: First, the original "Republican" party was not the party of Lincoln. Originally the "Republicans" formed around the political philosophy of Thomas Jefferson and then supported James Madison. Lincoln's "Republicans" were actually a re-emergence of the Whigs, motivated by a desire to implement the economic system of European mercantilism.

Second: The intentional mislabeling of the so-called "Anti-Federalists" by the so-called "Federalists". The Federalists were actually nationalists who knew that the public overwhelmingly supported a federal republic as the form of government for the United States and that the public was similarly opposed to a national form of government. Those who were called the Anti-Federalists were the true federalists.

Edit: This was meant to be a reply to SidewalkTiger's post on page 3.
This post was edited on 7/13/20 at 3:16 am
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