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Started By
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re: THE warharks insist that WE all believe Russia started the war. We started it. Here's how
Posted on 2/26/25 at 11:49 am to i am dan
Posted on 2/26/25 at 11:49 am to i am dan
quote:
There's also a lot more stuff in there to add to contributed to the conflict.
That's how I interpreted it. It was a very good video. I believe the people discussing it knew what they were talking about. The main discussion was held at Columbia University it looks like.
Theres other excellent videos on the subject that lay things out very simply.
One is called "How the West Created Vladimir Putin" and it's a speech by V. Pozner. J Mearsheimer has several videos but his are a bit more detailed and complex. But the same message.
0
Posted on 2/26/25 at 11:50 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Your skimmer ain't working:
I skimmed it. The last NATO expansion I caught him referencing was in 2004.
2009
In 2009, NATO’s foothold in East Europe grew firmer:
Albania (formerly of the Warsaw Pact)
Croatia (successor to Yugoslavia)
2017 and 2020
These additions to NATO are both successor states to Yugoslavia:
Montenegro (in 2017)
North Macedonia (in 2020)
2023 and 2024
The Russo-Ukrainian War, and the escalation of which beginning on February 24, 2022, brought NATO’s growth into the foreground of foreign policy debates at the time. Russia’s full-scale invasion also prompted Finland and Sweden to officially apply and were eventually accepted into the alliance.
Finland (in 2023)
Sweden (in 2024)
Posted on 2/26/25 at 11:52 am to Vacherie Saint
Yeah, well, there are better guys and worse guys. And I'm not going to be baggered into hating on Putin and Russia by the same deep state that caused this mess and hates me anyway.
Anyone that actually studies this issue knows that we basically bullied and got in Russias grill... and continued to do it until we got what we deserved.
Now it's time.to stop it.
Anyone that actually studies this issue knows that we basically bullied and got in Russias grill... and continued to do it until we got what we deserved.
Now it's time.to stop it.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 11:53 am to HagaDaga
quote:
I was going to add this, but don't remember when was the first time Putin put that line in the sand. Does anyone know when he first said this?
Maybe 2007? At a speech in Germany, maybe?
Posted on 2/26/25 at 12:00 pm to deuceiswild
quote:
Maybe 2007? At a speech in Germany, maybe?
Damn. Thx. Further back than I thought. This really shows how much of a warning Putin provide. Like him or not, can't blame the guy. Especially to support a total tool doofus like zelinsky.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 12:02 pm to Vacherie Saint
quote:
wtf are these? who voted for this? who enforces this?
The good guys enforce them.
That is why when the US invades Vietnam to prevent the expansion of communism, it does not violate international law. But if Russia invades Ukraine to prevent the expansion of NATO, it does.
Also, you can't attack civilians, but if you drone a family because you "mistook" them for terrorists or you drone a wedding because you "mistook" them for terrorists, that is okay.
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Posted on 2/26/25 at 12:20 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
So we "started the war" in 2022 due to actions 20-30 years prior?
You laugh, but this is often the case.
Gaza. Ukraine. 9/11. The War on Terror. Korea. Vietnam. All of these things were decades in the making (if not longer). Nothing happens in a vacuum, nor does it happen as quickly as people like to pretend it does. It’s usually like a dripping faucet that eventually overflows a tub.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 12:25 pm to RiverCityTider
I'm sure Sachs believes it.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 12:31 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
That's 30 minutes long and I'm not watching it......
That's four paragraphs long and I'm not reading it.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 12:33 pm to KiwiHead
quote:
I'm sure Sachs believes it.
Anyone with a thimble full off common sense does. I mean he has the proof and it is shown in the video. It is not debatable.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 12:42 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
You make this easy, when your very first sentence is an outright lie.
That language is not included in ANY treaty or agreement between the West and the former USSR.
All that happened (and everyone admits it) is that the US said it would not put troops in the former East Germany, though that assurance was NOT memorialized in the written agreements.
At that time, no one was even CONSIDERING the possibility that Ukraine and the Baltics would soon be independent countries, rather than constituent elements of the USSR.
True, I was wrong about that. It was not part of the treaty. The declaration that NATO would not advance an inch toward the east was an oral agreement and was recorded during a meeting about the expansion of NATO... this seemed to be a large part of the agreement. One of the stipulations required by Russia.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 12:46 pm to Vacherie Saint
Russia is the least bad guy in this whole mess. Yet another war that the globalists start and profit from.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 12:46 pm to i am dan
I agree with your assessment
You of course, will still likely receive some downvotes by slow blinker types who pretty much go by the basic black and white rule: “Anything U.S. does = good/justified. Anything Russia does = bad/unjustified”.
I felt that way too most of my life but in recent years I’ve come to realize and understand we’ve had some real dishonest and unethical characters representing “our side” who’ve contributed greatly towards some spectacular messes in the world.
You of course, will still likely receive some downvotes by slow blinker types who pretty much go by the basic black and white rule: “Anything U.S. does = good/justified. Anything Russia does = bad/unjustified”.
I felt that way too most of my life but in recent years I’ve come to realize and understand we’ve had some real dishonest and unethical characters representing “our side” who’ve contributed greatly towards some spectacular messes in the world.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 12:51 pm to i am dan
quote:At MOST, it was a representation made to a country (the former USSR) and a military bloc (the former Warsaw Pact), neither of which even exists any more.
The declaration that NATO would not advance an inch toward the east was an oral agreement
NATO to Poland in alternate 1999: "Sorry, but I must reject your bid for NATO membership, because I promised you (as a member of the now-defunct Warsaw Pact) that I would never allow you to join NATO. I know we are friends now, and you are afraid of Russian expansionism, but my hands are tied. So sorry."
This post was edited on 2/26/25 at 12:55 pm
Posted on 2/26/25 at 12:54 pm to Great Plains Drifter
quote:
agree with your assessment
You of course, will still likely receive some downvotes by slow blinker types who pretty much go by the basic black and white rule: “Anything U.S. does = good/justified. Anything Russia does = bad/unjustified”.
I felt that way too most of my life but in recent years I’ve come to realize and understand we’ve had some real dishonest and unethical characters representing “our side” who’ve contributed greatly towards some spectacular messes in the world.
This! I once was naive and truly believed that we were the good guys on everything. Unfortunately we are not. Hopefully going forward we can become the good that I thought we were all along.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 1:00 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
skimmed it. The last NATO expansion I caught him referencing was in 2004.
That's 18 years prior to Russia's invasion in 2022 (I rounded up)
What’s your point here?
Posted on 2/26/25 at 1:04 pm to AggieHank86
Damn Hank been a minute since I’ve seen you here.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 1:31 pm to Nurbis
you naive little turd, you. If you believe for one second, that anyone truly adheres to this completely unenforceable and imagined western construct of "international law" you speak of, than you deserve to be on the front lines of this war for profit that you so feel so passionately about.
You think the US follows these "laws"? LOL How about China? Iran? Or literally anyone else when it really matters? Moron.
You think the US follows these "laws"? LOL How about China? Iran? Or literally anyone else when it really matters? Moron.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 1:32 pm to Vacherie Saint
quote:
you naive little turd, you. If you believe for one second, that anyone truly adheres to this completely unenforceable and imagined western construct of "international law" you speak of,
Putin sure believed in it with NATO, right?
Posted on 2/26/25 at 1:33 pm to AggieHank86
That's all well and good, but if you're interested in analyzing Putin's attitude toward the West, or his distrust for western "promises", these things become relevant.
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