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re: Southern Baptist ban on women pastors fails in historic vote
Posted on 6/13/24 at 5:05 pm to JiminyCricket
Posted on 6/13/24 at 5:05 pm to JiminyCricket
quote:
………..now you’ve used Christ’s righteous anger with the heart of the Pharisees to justify your lashing out at me. That’s something else man.
Calling out someone misleading others about scripture is righteous anger. Ive seen enough of it in my lifetime and ive seen how it has weakened the Church. Im not gonna sit by as someone twists the divinely inspired words of Paul to be something they arent. Ive seen the fruits of this, we can all see it.
That doesnt mean im righteous like Jesus or even more righteous than you. Paul called out Peter once. That didnt mean Paul was more righteous than Peter. Im fully aware that im a sinner.
This post was edited on 6/13/24 at 5:08 pm
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Posted on 6/13/24 at 5:06 pm to scottydoesntknow
Anyone who thinks women belong in leadership positions within the church are evil demonic bastards that are trying to bring churches down.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 5:10 pm to ShinerHorns
quote:
Anyone who thinks women belong in leadership positions within the church are evil demonic bastards that are trying to bring churches down.
One only need ask, what are the fruits of this? Are they good? Is the Church thriving? Is the Church having a real impact on the world...or is the world having an impact on the Church?
Posted on 6/13/24 at 5:13 pm to scottydoesntknow
That’s a bit dramatic. We disagree on the interpretation of an issue not related to the gospel. It’s not like I’ve argued a universalist POV here.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 5:15 pm to scottydoesntknow
Cmon man. It’s obtuse to pretend that the church hasn’t had an abundance of black eyes over the years and in most of those cases, men were in charge. I’m not saying put women in charge and all those issues go away, I’m just saying that laying the entire struggle of the church at the feet of people who disagree on 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians is a bit over the top.
The clergy is still dominated over 80% by males. And that includes office personnel as well.
The clergy is still dominated over 80% by males. And that includes office personnel as well.
This post was edited on 6/13/24 at 5:17 pm
Posted on 6/13/24 at 5:21 pm to scottydoesntknow
quote:
Singing, playing piano, teaching children, teaching other women, etc is a perfectly fine role according to scripture, for women.
I don't recall any mention of a piano, or any other musical instrument for that matter, in the worship of the first century church, or anywhere in the New Testament, and I sure don't recall running across anything that says women can play it.
I'm obviously not a Baptist, but it still hurts to see a church who proclaims to worship the one God bend so far away in willing error in order to satisfy the desires of man (or women, as the case may be).
There is no scriptural authority for congregations to come together under a singular earthly governmental authority. Placing multiple congregations under a singular earthly, fallible authority allows for such apostacy to run rampant through the brotherhood affecting and infecting multiple congregations in rapid succession. Congregations of the Lord's church are established in the New Testament as autonomous entities overseen by local elders meeting certain, specific qualifications laid forth by the apostle Paul in his letter to Timothy. It is unfortunate and saddening that so many of the various protestant denominations have left this design in favor of a centralized governmental system of authority and doctrine that is contrary to the teachings of the apostles and brethren of the first century.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 5:22 pm to JiminyCricket
quote:
That’s a bit dramatic. We disagree on the interpretation of an issue not related to the gospel. It’s not like I’ve argued a universalist POV here.
The argument you are making can then be applied to all of Paul's letters, which is where we derive most of Christian doctrine. If one can pick and choose what they want to follow, there is no Christianity, just feelgoodism.
There is not one single shred of doubt that your "interpretation" falls squarely in with the world. That very fact alone should make you rethink it
Posted on 6/13/24 at 5:26 pm to Swamp Angel
quote:
I don't recall any mention of a piano, or any other musical instrument for that matter, in the worship of the first century church, or anywhere in the New Testament, and I sure don't recall running across anything that says women can play it.
Ill definitely concede that I used inappropriate wording there. It isnt scriptural that women can do any of those things. There just doesnt seem to be anything forbidding women to do these things.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 5:28 pm to JiminyCricket
quote:You didn't, however you didn't clarify that in following Christ's example, you weren't denying the examples and commands of the rest of the Scriptures which do not contradict Christ but further elaborate and clarify His example for us. Many Christians today seem to only value the words of Christ in the Bible while ignoring the rest of the God-inspired Scriptures. If you are not one of them, then I'm glad we share that conviction.
I don't recall arguing that the bible isn't God's word.
quote:The example of women submitting to their husbands is the example of the Scriptures generally, with few exceptions. The leaders of the OT Church were exclusively men, being the elders and the priests. While there are a couple examples of women being used by God for His glory in the Church, they were the exception and not the rule.
I'm honestly asking because I don't have the entire bible memorized but is there old testament scriptures that say explicitly that women are never to teach and to be quiet in worship or is that only found in Corinthians and timothy?
The NT fleshes this out more as 1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1 give the qualifications for leadership (officers) in the Church, with the elders being exclusively male (there is debate about the nature of the deaconate and whether or not verse 11 is speaking of the wives of the deacons or the women deacon--the word used is simply "women" which is often times translated as "wives"--but deacons are ministers of mercy, not the Word of God as elders are). Eph. 5 and Col. 3 talk about wives being subject to their husbands as the proper order within the home, and 1 Cor. 14 and 1 Tim. 2 speak of the women not speaking within the context of the worship of God, but in particular, the teaching element of worship.
quote:All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus will overlook the sins of all those who put their trust in Him for forgiveness of sins, but everyone will be held accountable for every idle word spoken, including me and everyone on this forum.
I would imagine that if Jesus examined the lives of all of the posters here, he would find fault? Isn't that exactly the point you just made, that Jesus was angry at the hypocrisy. People here have attacked me for breaking God's word while doing so in a manner that is not of God's word.
quote:Listen brother, I'm not calling you any names. I'm sorry that others claiming the name of Christ are, if they are (I haven't read every post in this thread so I'll take your word for it). That's not how we are to have disagreements. We are to show love for one another even in where we have disagreements. This is not a gospel issue, so this is not a hill to die on, but I believe women being in leadership is symptomatic of more fundamental problems with how the Scriptures are viewed, which can certainly lead to gospel issues.
Look, I just differ from you guys on this one issue. I think Paul was writing to the church in Corinth to help them get some order in place and not to make an all time decree. I haven't used venom or anger to attack anyone, I've simply had a difference of opinion over a secondary issue and yet I've been called multiple names by people claiming to be Christ's ambassadors.
Perhaps the ones throwing the stones should examine themselves first. Are y'all keeping the whole of the law? Do y'all follow the bible exactly everyday? I hope your answer is no because if you think you are, the truth isn't in you.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 6:33 pm to scottydoesntknow
quote:
If God tells me, doing X is wise and I do Y, why should I expect a good result?
No, but Paul himself defined sin as transgressing the law.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 6:36 pm to JiminyCricket
quote:
My view is that is was wise for that church at that time
You can discount half of the new testament like that.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 8:21 pm to LSUGrad2024
quote:
And who compiled the Bible? Organized Christianity
Organized Christianity left out many books and altered others. The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that texts were changed. This is why I don't trust Organized Christianity.
quote:
Who interpreted it for the layman?
Organized Christianity
I don't need someone to interpret the scripture as Organized Christianity would have you believe. God gave me the ability to do that myself.
quote:
Who stopped the Muslims from conquering Christendom?
Organized Christianity
I'm not sure what this has to do with scripture, but good job on defending your families, I guess.
quote:
Some of you Prots remind me of Mormons. Y’all think the Bible just magically appeared in the woods, and love to forget the ancient roots of our faith
That's funny considering you're the one who is forgetting how the Bible was actually compiled. It was compiled by leaders and priests looking out for their own power and wealth, which is why they altered books in the first place. There were multiple brands of Christianity before the most powerful person in the world, a military leader not a religious scholar, stepped in to create a singular mainstream denomination. As a Christian, you should study more than what your religious leaders tell you to.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 9:30 pm to Seldom Seen
Good. Such a ban flies in the face of Baptist autonomy, and, is quite frankly popish.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 10:09 pm to JiminyCricket
quote:
My god doesn’t change and his ways are always good.
Maybe you dont know God. You just have a mental image of what a god should be
quote:
My god doesn’t change
ummmmmm
quote:
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Did God, in fact, change? The very definition of the word repent means he did. And it was recorded in scripture
quote:
repent - to turn from something and dedicate oneself to the amending of that thing; to change one's mind
So he very likely told Paul that women being ordained in my church will lead to what I saw in Sodom.
Posted on 6/14/24 at 12:29 am to JiminyCricket
quote:
If, as Paul writes in 1 Timothy, women are not to teach men................I'll say it again TEACH MEN, why then would God use a woman to teach King Josiah?
I think you’re reading too much into the text. The spiritual gift of prophecy is not the same as the spiritual gift of teaching, or leadership. Though there are several female prophets in the Old Testament (and a few in the NT), they are the exception to the rule, so to speak, and all but Deborah had no real authority. I think Deborah is probably the best (only, I think) example of female leadership/authority in the OT, and Priscilla is the lone example of a woman teaching (with her husband, Aquila) the ways of God to Apollos in the NT.
Neither of those examples (or any of the many other examples of God using and working through women in the Bible) is sufficiently comparable to the reasons for Paul’s teaching in 1 Timothy (and the other Pastoral letters)- which is in reference to a church gone astray, and how to get it back.
quote:
Y'all keep hitting the leadership portion but the teaching portion is just as much part of that passage as the rest of it. Stop running from it
You’re right. But, teaching is a form of leadership, and requires a certain degree of authority. There in lies the problem. Arguably, the vast majority of these women who are claiming only the desire to teach, are consciously or subconsciously desiring the authority that comes with it. This desire is the same as Eve’s desire in the garden of Eden. This desire is more reflective of Jezebel than Jesus.
quote:
Can a woman teach a man or not?
1 Timothy 2:11–14 (NASB95): 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
Can a man learn from a woman? Absolutely. I learn from women. We all do. Can a woman teach, or exercise authority over a man? Not according to the inspired Word of God.
I can’t help but notice that you’re catching a lot of flak over this. And it’s understandable. I mean, every denomination that has allowed women pastors/leaders has eventually embraced homosexuality. I think your heart is in the right place, as is that of most men who espouse egalitarian values. The problem is, that God’s Word is very clear on this subject. And, while your heart may be in the right place, you have to consider where Eve’s heart was and ask yourself- do you want to make the same mistake that Adam made?
Genesis 3:4–5 (NASB95): 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5 “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
What did Adam do? What did he not do?
Posted on 6/14/24 at 12:59 am to JiminyCricket
quote:
It doesn't say they CAN speak to women. It says to be quiet and have their heads covered.
You’ve answered your question in part.
You wrote:
“Is it possible that you're taking contextual instruction given by paul to a specific church in response to the goings on of that particular church at that particular time period and applying it as an all time command?“
You’re right, both women’s silence and head coverings are in letters directed to a specific church, Corinth, and both are instructions within a broader context. However, neither are limited to Corinth, but are the practice of all the churches, in other words, the Church.
In context, Paul’s instruction on women’s silence in Church was given as part of the larger issue of orderly public worship. Like head coverings, women’s silence was only one point in a much broader teaching by the Apostle.
As far as limited to a specific church, Paul says this:
“As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 14:33-37)
Paul addresses head coverings similarly in
1 Corinthians 11:2-16. He concludes his arguments for and his instructions on the requirement for women to wear some form of head covering in church with verse 16.
If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God. It’s rather awkwardly constructed-“we have no such practice” is the practice of uncovered women in church.
Women shrugging off head coverings in church might have been one of the first casualties of Feminism. Now, there are women Priests and Bishops in some denominations, especially those who have become apostate.
Posted on 6/14/24 at 4:15 am to LSUbest
quote:
You can discount half of the new testament like that.
That’s what he’s doing, and honestly, you’re toeing the line with your “the law” business.
Posted on 6/14/24 at 5:51 am to Seldom Seen
Zealot board
It seems wild to me that there was / is an epidemic of male religious leaders fricking children, and yet it is women who should be barred from leadership positions based purely on their sex / gender.
It seems wild to me that there was / is an epidemic of male religious leaders fricking children, and yet it is women who should be barred from leadership positions based purely on their sex / gender.
This post was edited on 6/14/24 at 6:23 am
Posted on 6/14/24 at 5:59 am to Norbert
Oh yes. Growing up in the midsouth, the Baptists and Pentecostals in particular worked overtime at showing what massive hypocrites they can be. I remember there was one particular preacher who loved to preach on the homosexuals burning for eternity. He was caught with a male prostitute in the parking lot of a Shoney's...
This post was edited on 6/14/24 at 6:04 am
Posted on 6/14/24 at 6:25 am to Dex Morgan
quote:
He was caught with a male prostitute in the parking lot of a Shoney's...
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