re: Religious Leaders Told to 'Prepare Now' for UFO Disclosure and 'Bible-Changing' Revelation

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You're proving my point, just fighting with it as you prove me correct.

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Unless you actually support your point, you are just making baseless assertions.

You are clearly wrong about biblical Christianity and are now trying to move the goal posts to win an argument.

I suggest you stick to arguing about the fine points of the law and working through loopholes rather than trying to find loop holes in Christianity. God is smarter than you.

“ I'm curious why self awareness by itself would constitute imaging God. Angels are self aware and they are not said to be image bearers. There are a few tests performed to test self awareness on animals, and depending on who you talk to, apes and dolphins are self aware, as are dogs and cats. I don't think each of those are creatures that reflect the image of God in the way the Bible is talking about, so I don't think that is enough.”(quote Foo)

I have no authority basis to what “the Bible is talking about” re God’s Image, as ‘image’ seems to imply a form of vision. Such cannot be physical, but Spiritual. Feeling could meet that Spiritual standard as Love is indeed a Feeling. Subjective at that as it exists for some “at the well” while others not so much.

I think Self Awareness indicates a relatively advanced form of Awareness which has the potential to reflect God, as Love, Foo. And I think Scripture says that “God IS Love”. Such being the core of Jesus’s Gospel as well. Of course advanced Self Awareness could reflect Lucifer as well.

I don’t know that imagining such abstract concepts are even necessary for most people of Faith. But it helps me. “Vain philosophy “ duly noted. I watch a YouTube Channel titled “EverSoulful” wherein animals of all species reflect Love, beyond their own kind. Zero doubt as the feelings are clearly manifest, and are extremely uplifting for me, and I suspect all who worship Love. And I always used to doubt that “the lion and the lamb will lie down together “ as little more than romantic hyperbole and allegory, but no more. Seeing is believing, due caution nws.

Keep up the good work. Be well my Brother.

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and are now trying to move the goal posts to win an argument.

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I'm not. I finally have you somewhat within the argument, despite your constant need to fight the proper framing. This fight is why you're trying to "move the goal posts" t your area of comfort.

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I can discuss it however I wish.

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Sure and you can do it incorrectly or dishonestly just the same. I'm explaining to you how to do it correctly and rhetorically honest.

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You seem to have moved on from the possible existence of alien life to the actuality that they are made in the image of God in order to show my arguments are false.

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I guess you choose dishonesty.

This is just one hypothetical within my discussion/argument that hasn't flinched.

There has been no "moving on"

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We are debating about truth claims, and particularly the truth claims of Christianity in light of the possible existence of alien life.

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I"m specifically discussing the impacts of such important variables being left out of the Bible. Aliens created in the image of man fit within that argument perfectly.

It's just giving you problems so now you're doing this attempt to claim I'm moving the goalposts as a clandestine way to move them away from the hypothetical within my argument that gives you problems. And within your attempts to rationalist why you're doing this, you are proving my argument (that leaving out such a major thing would bring the Bible into question) true.

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For one, the Bible doesn't need to say that humans are exclusively made in the image of God for it to be teaching such exclusivity. I'm attempting to show how the teaching of Scripture as a whole leads to that conclusion.

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Where does the Bible specifically say aliens couldn't' be made in God's image?

It doesn't, and perfectly fits into the "something important left out of the Bible" issue that's the central point of my argument.

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you haven't shown that the Bible being silent about alien life--if it exists--actually impacts Christian doctrine about exclusivity of salvation through Jesus, the second person of the triune God.

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Just look at how hard you're fighting having a discussion about aliens being made in the image of God to see me showing that.

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You are trying to add additional requirements to the discussion in order to win an argument.

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No. Nothing about aliens being made in the image of god conflicts with or "adds additional requirements to" my argument. That scenario is fully within the scope of my argument.

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You are trying to move on from a claim to an actual objective truth, and then using that against me, as if simply stating "let's presume God does not exist; what does that do to Christianity" doesn't just end the debate if you are trying to disprove Christianity. I

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See you're strawmanning here, again.

There is nothing in the Bible that states aliens can't be made in the image of God.

The Bible says mans is made in that image, but never states that's the exclusive list.

This is exactly the type of example of something important being left out of the Bible that would create issues. We can go back to my original points.

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It doesn't disprove that a god can exist, or even, theoretically, the Christian god. It does make the Bible a major issue, though, and opens up the door for justifications for religions like Islam and Mormonism, because, effectively, lots of important stuff apparently can be left out of the Bible.

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"Lots of important stuff" = aliens made in the image of God

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A better question is how significant a fact/variable would need to be in order to have an impact on Christianity by being left out of the Bible

A new holy book?

A new savior?

A proclamation of polytheism?

Clearly these would significantly change Christianity as it's understood on Earth, correct?

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Here that question becomes "Aliens being made in the image of God?"

I think we've clearly, at this point, established a scenario significant enough to have an impact on Christianity by being left out of the Bible

We just have to get you to stop trying to change to discussion, reframe it, or use strawmen to answer that question.

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Or is it that you presuppose I am mocking because of your bias?

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Nah. It’s your “go to” attempt to deny the gravity of the situation. Now that I think about it, it’s probably a reflexive defense. Y

Eh. That’s enough of that. When one of us gets some new insight, I say we take it up again. You got a boat? I’m looking at an 18’ Xpress with a Johnson 2-stroke 150. I like freshwater fishing, and I’m about done with fiberglass repair.

Well we're waiting gif

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I think we've clearly, at this point, established a scenario significant enough to have an impact on Christianity by being left out of the Bible

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For fricks sake, would you shut up?

The Bible says the Earth is flat. Yeah, there is still a collective of idiots that believes that. But the Bible not teaching the heliocentric model hasn't harmed Christianity. You have spent 40+ fricking pages arguing with Christians as an atheist trying to tell them how they themselves - not you will react in a hypothetical scenario.

To say you are pedantic and argumentative would be putting it mildly in the extreme. Just shut the frick up

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but it is designated by God as creating a creature with a special purpose of reflecting God's glory to creation.

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Yeah. On Earth.

We don't reflect God's glory to creation on Venus (because we aren't on Venus).

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We see how this played out with humans...

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That's right. We saw how it played out with humans. We wouldn't need to know how it played out anywhere else, with anybody else.

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redeeming mankind (not any other creatures, even fallen angels)

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Mankind may have been the only creatures who needed redeeming (and were capable of being redeemed...at least one scholarly theory of why angels don't get any second chances is because due to their nature, they can't repent.)

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sin exists for those who have a law that they can break.

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I think a whole lot of Thomas Aquinas and in particular his theory of God's Ideas As Exemplar Causes. I'm sure you know that men like Aquinas and Augustine, their whole ministry was about interpreting the pagan philosophies that were popular in their day and either debunking them or showing how they were even more true when interpreted in a Christian context. That's what God's Ideas As Exemplar Causes is; a reinterpretation of Plato in a Christian context.

It states that essentially everything physical that exists emanates from the mind of God and therefore in some way reflects or suggests His character.

For example, matter exists in three forms: solid, liquid, gas. It requires a trinity framework: space, time, matter. Each of those is comprised of a trinity:

Time = Past, present, future

Space = Length, width, height

Matter = Energy, motion, phenomena

You get it...this physical world suggests the Trinity in its very being. Those are only a couple of examples, there are many more.

A circle has no beginning, no end, and yet it exists in a finite physical universe. Infinity in a finite space = Christ.

Etc.

Well, if everything that exists is an expression of God's nature and character in some way, then the law really is written in nature. I think that's what Paul means when he says (emphasis mine):

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For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

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So I'm not sure about that last statement of yours. I'm not sure we have to be given a command (we were, I'm not disputing that...I'm just saying I'm not sure it's a necessary requirement...all of nature serves as a testimony that we may accept or reject).

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Animals cannot sin because they have no law that they can understand and break.

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Agreed, I don't think animals have either the agency or the acumen to perceive what Paul is talking about above, although it does get a little complicated when you consider that the OT does say that an accounting will have to be given for the spilling of blood...even from an animal. I know you haven't forgotten about that one as many times as you've quoted it to me.


I have a theory on that too, but I don't want to go off on a tangent.

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Therefore, aliens having the ability to sin and not actually sinning would mean they would either live forever as they are (that would have been the reward for Adam had he obeyed)

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If Aquinas was right, that makes sense to me. Not because of a system of "rewards," but because if he's right and everything that exists (including life itself) is a reflection of Divine nature and we relate to Him harmoniously, we remain within that flow of life. In other words, if we're good with Him, we're also good with everything that reflects Him. If we rebel against Him, we have automatically opposed life as well, and taken ourselves out of it. I don't think the "curses" in Genesis 3 were punishments so much as they were descriptions of how their actions would change the physical world and their experience in it.

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If aliens had the same image-quality and prominence as man does, then it seems odd that they would not be included in the ruling and reigning with Christ in the new creation.

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Again, there's absolutely nothing in Revelation that says that only humans will reign with Christ. It just says that humans will reign with Christ.
Like my example before, I can just about guarantee you that SDV Tiger will post something childish tomorrow designed to excuse Trump for some thing or another. But just because he's the only one I named, that doesn't mean that he'll be the only one.

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And, because God has only one people--who Jesus is tied to through His human nature--that precludes other peoples that Jesus is head of and over.

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Do you have a scripture to support the notion that people belong to Christ through His human nature as opposed to His Divine nature?

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“ I'm curious why self awareness by itself would constitute imaging God. Angels are self aware and they are not said to be image bearers. There are a few tests performed to test self awareness on animals, and depending on who you talk to, apes and dolphins are self aware, as are dogs and cats. I don't think each of those are creatures that reflect the image of God in the way the Bible is talking about, so I don't think that is enough.”(quote Foo)

I have no authority basis to what “the Bible is talking about” re God’s Image, as ‘image’ seems to imply a form of vision. Such cannot be physical, but Spiritual. Feeling could meet that Spiritual standard as Love is indeed a Feeling. Subjective at that as it exists for some “at the well” while others not so much.

I think Self Awareness indicates a relatively advanced form of Awareness which has the potential to reflect God, as Love, Foo. And I think Scripture says that “God IS Love”. Such being the core of Jesus’s Gospel as well. Of course advanced Self Awareness could reflect Lucifer as well.

I don’t know that imagining such abstract concepts are even necessary for most people of Faith. But it helps me. “Vain philosophy “ duly noted. I watch a YouTube Channel titled “EverSoulful” wherein animals of all species reflect Love, beyond their own kind. Zero doubt as the feelings are clearly manifest, and are extremely uplifting for me, and I suspect all who worship Love. And I always used to doubt that “the lion and the lamb will lie down together “ as little more than romantic hyperbole and allegory, but no more. Seeing is believing, due caution nws.

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While God is love, God is also just, all-knowing, everywhere-present, all-powerful, and many other things. God is His attributes and His attributes are Him.

Christians historically have taken the view that God has two types of attributes: communicable (able to be communicated or shared) and incommunicable. Love is a communicable attribute while omniscience is not, for instance.

Since God is more than love, I think that love by itself is not sufficient to image God. Even so, angels love in some sense in that they love God and worship and glorify Him. We have to image God in a way that the angels do not.

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Keep up the good work. Be well my Brother.

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