Squirrelmeister

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There is a growing number of scholars who admit Jesus was a complete myth.

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this is pure BS - the OVERWHELMING view of scholars is that there was a historical Jesus

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It’s not BS. You’re confused. There is absolutely a growing number of scholars who admit Jesus was a myth, while at the same time still the majority defends the position that Jesus was a historical person.

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Even Bart Erman (dude is going to have quote the millstone tied around his neck when he dies - I'd hate to be him) says it's irrefutable that there was ahistorical Jesus.

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Have you heard his arguments??? He says the gospels are completely unreliable about anything historical, that outside the gospels the historical Jesus isn’t really mentioned, that Josephus’ blurbs about Jesus were Christian additions. Basically he says there is no reliable information at all about Jesus, but come on man he must’ve existed. It’s an awful argument and isn’t scholarly. At best he should say there’s no way to know but he leans towards a historical model, but he acts like mythicists are idiots. He’s the idiot.

His colleagues and peers I’m positive are mythicists but they don’t want to offend the guy they idolize. After the older scholars kick the bucket in the next 15 years the mythicists will come out of the closet and it will be mainstream.

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Hey my friend! Where do you come down in the aliens existence?

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The known universe is practically infinite. Even if life on earth arose from a 1 in a trillion chance in the Milky Way, there’s trillions of trillions of trillions of galaxies so it’s practically inevitable that there are other life forms in the universe. What I don’t think is that any life on one planet will ever be aware of any life on another planet and certainly won’t be able to communicate and more so will be unable to ever meet. But I’m open to the possibility because we don’t know what we don’t know.

I’ve seen some of the navy pilot videos. I don’t know what that shite is - those orbs that are super fast and can change direction on a dime. Could they be gods? Aliens? Technology of a previous civilization or a civilization of aliens from another planet in our solar system? I don’t know, but I won’t jump to conclusions and I don’t have a dogma to defend.

If there are aliens, I’m thankful they haven’t yet murdered us all and taken all our resources.

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Can we stop using this rhetoric?

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He can’t help himself. John Calvin wrote an infinite loop into his code.

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Also, arrogance is an unjustified high perception of self. It isn’t arrogant to believe something as true. It would be arrogant to believe that something is true because you believe it, meaning the truth is based on you making it true, rather than it being true regardless of whether you believed it.

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This is why I will not engage you. A five second Google search (emphasis mine):

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Some early Christians and church fathers held the Book of Enoch in high regard, treating it as inspired or authoritative, though it was not universally accepted as canonical scripture.

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I’d advise you to quit using google AI or whatever and read a book. Did you read the explanation I gave Foo about how when Jesus told the Sadducees they didn’t know the scripture or the power of God - that in the resurrection believers will be as the angels in heaven, not having wives? I quoted the Enoch verses that “Jesus” was referring to. Did you read my earlier post in this thread of some of the main 1 Enoch references in Paul’s letters, Jude, Peter, and the gospels?

Do you understand that historically and even today there isn’t a universally accepted canon of scripture amongst Israelites, Jews, and Christians? Do you realize that even today there are those who claim James and Peter were Judaizing false apostles/heretics who rejected Jesus’ “true” teachings of faith in him for a continuance of the Jewish law? And that there are those who believe Paul is the antichrist and the false prophet Jesus warned about because he rejected God’s law?

Of course you don’t realize that 1 Enoch was fundamental to the creation of Christianity, but realize that 1 Enoch was preserved by Christians, not rabbinic (post temple destruction) Judaism. That doesn’t give you a little bit of a hint that Christians thought 1 Enoch was scripture? Many of the nuttiest Christians today - the flat earthers - love 1 Enoch with a passion, and unlike many Christians on this site when the Bible says the earth is flat and there is a crystal dome - a firmament above us in the sky - they believe it instead of rejecting the word of God like most modern Christians.

The early Christians of the first and early second centuries didn’t really have an Old Testament canon. The Old Testament was appended to the Christian scriptures as a response to Markion of Sinope - the guy actually responsible for starting the first Christian Bible and compiling Paul’s letters. Markion rejected the Jewish scriptures, and since the Roman church excommunicated him and since he was so successful (more Christians were of his brand than of the Roman brand in the second century) the Roman Church added the Jewish “Old Testament” to the scripture. At that point the Romans said “hey what is the Jewish scripture? Let’s ask the Jews.” And they got the Old Testament we predominantly got today, though they mostly used the Septuagint Greek renderings they took the canon from the Jews… who precisely rejected 1 Enoch because it was a scripture the Christians valued so much and it was too Jesus-ey.

Christianity didn’t spring up from Phariseeic/Rabbinic Judaism. It arose from something like the Essene sect who preserved and valued 1 Enoch as scripture. Those are facts that you should deal with even though it might be inconvenient and unsettling for you. Later on a couple centuries later, the Christians (some of them, but not Tertullian) forgot their roots and adopted the “wrong” version/canon of Jewish scriptures while rejecting the scripture at the very foundation of their religion.

Pick up a history book or something written by a legitimate scholar of Christian origins. Maybe something like The Lost Prophet: The Book of Enoch and Its Influence on Christianity by Margaret Barker. You may learn something and better yourself. This applies not only to you but also the other arrogant dullards on this site.

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In short, you are a liar serving the Father of Lies

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:dope:

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Prodigal Son

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Hey dude it’s been a long time since you and I actually conversed and I hope you are well.

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The Triune Godhead manifest as: 1. God, The Father. The Universal Energy Reservoir being absolute 'Awareness'. Pure Spirit. 2. God, The Son. Awareness would, by default, becomes a 'Self'; as such becomes aware of Its existence. I.e., "I Am, the I Am". A derivative of God the Father, and therein subordinate, but truthfully being "one with the Father" nonetheless. As the Biblical Jesus Christ rightly described Himself.

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So considering this “Jesus” quotation:

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I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

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Human believers become part of the godhead, if you apply consistent logic.

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We have been over this many times. Paul had several visions of Jesus (not just the one that resulted in his initial conversion).

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The historical apostle Paul never wrote that he had seen the Lord Jesus more than once, only that he had seen him… just like he wrote of the other apostles such as James and Peter - Jesus appeared to them in a vision and that’s how they knew of them.

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The point you didn’t address or refute is that there are many hundreds more references to other Old Testament books than 1 Enoch

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I never said there wasn’t. Only that there are more parallels or references to 1 Enoch in the New Testament than there is to any other Old Testament book. There are a lot of Genesis, Isaiah, Deuteronomy, and Ezekiel references too. Even some Zephaniah, Haggai, Habakkuk, and Malachi, and more. But there are more 1 Enoch parallels than all of them, but not all the other combined. Do you understand what I’m saying?

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so your claim is false

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No, you just don’t understand because you don’t want to acknowledge reality.

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They are recounting eye-witness accounts

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Have you moved the goal posts? Do you finally admit the gospels aren’t eyewitness accounts? You seem to be accepting they are at least secondhand storytelling. That’s a step in the right direction.

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That is factually untrue. Isaiah is the most referenced book in the New Testament, followed by the Psalms.

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You have no credibility because you don’t know what is contained within 1 Enoch and you don’t know the history so when you are reading the NT you don’t catch the references and allusions.

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There is no indication that any early Christian community universally thought that Enoch wrote the first book of Enoch,

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Damn you really hate God’s first prophet to be translated into a spirit being and taken to heaven.

There is no indication that any early Jewish community universally thought that the prophets wrote the prophetic material. The Samaritans rejected all the prophetic material and so did the Sadducees.

There’s no indication that any early Christian community universally thought that the historical Paul wrote Colossians, Ephesians, Titus, Timothy, and 2 Thessalonians. And many didn’t think the “real” author wrote 1/2 Peter, 1/2/3 John, Jude, James, and revelation. Many Christians thought those letters where bullshite pseudepigrapha.

What’s your point?

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While 1 Maccabees isn’t Scripture, it can be helpful historically, and it says there were no prophets during that time (about the 5th century—after Ezra/Nehemiah—through the 2nd)

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Well if some dude with sand up his arse who killed and burned goats for a living wrote it, it must be true!
:lol:

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There was also conflict with the rule of calendar promoted (solar vs lunar), but that was pretty minor.

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I’m pretty sure you only know of the calendar dispute because of my posts on here.
:lol:

But to say that was minor, man, I thought it educated you better than that. The fact that the Persians recreated the whole Jewish religion and used the lunar calendar made many Israelites believe the new temple was corrupt and wasn’t following God’s laws. If they didn’t know which day it really was, then the festivals couldn’t be celebrated on the right day. That calendar dispute is foundational for the book of 1 Enoch, when the stars (angels) didn’t appear at the right time of the year and were cast down from the firmament and punished. And we see the same imagery in the book of Revelation, and that stars falling from heaven imagery is nowhere in the canonical Old Testament but only in 1 Enoch.

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1 Enoch had it also been passed down from antiquity, but it wasn’t. It was only a few hundred years old by the time of Jesus

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You aren’t going to like this, but the truth is the majority of the Bible was only a few hundred years old. In the correspondence between the temple in Elephantine Egypt and the Jerusalem temple priests in the 4th century , there is no knowledge of the Torah or any books of the Bible or the prohibition of more than one temple or even the prohibition of worshipping other gods. The Jerusalem temple was fine to pay for the rebuilding of the temple in Egypt and they worshipped other gods including Anat at that temple.

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Jesus is speaking to the mode of existence of angels not entering into the estate of marriage that was given to human beings on earth. He was not speaking to Genesis 6 (which is debated whether or not it is talking about angels anyway), but to Genesis 2-3.

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Quote the passage in Genesis 2-3 talking about angels not getting married :rotflmao:

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Jesus doesn’t talk about this at all in the passages you mentioned. You are making a false inference to Genesis 6.

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No dummy, I told you I’m talking about 1 Enoch. Genesis 6 doesn’t mention the punishment of the angels or that raping the human women and making a race of giants was even evil. It’s only explained in the Enochic literature. When Jesus tells the Sadducees they don’t know the scripture, he means just that. The Sadducees didn’t know 1 Enoch. They didn’t keep it as scripture. That scripture 1 Enoch would answer their question. In the resurrection the newly reborn spiritual bodied humans would be like the angels in heaven, not taking wives, as opposed to the angels who went to earth who did take wives and got into trouble for it.

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Jesus mentions the angels in heaven because they are eternal and do not die. Humans on earth die, and therefore marriage was given for procreation to keep life going on earth. In the resurrection, there will be no more need for procreation, and all who are raised will be eternally alive in their new bodies. Therefore, like the angels who do not procreate but live on perpetually, in the resurrected state, there will be no marriage.

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:blah:
That’s a stretched out mental gymnastics pretzel even for you dude. Pathetic.

Ok let me help you out. I don’t like you, I’ll be honest, but you need to know that you are absolutely full of shite so you can better yourself.

Wouldn’t it make more sense that this:

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24Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

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Comes from 1 Enoch:

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And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves 12 with them in all their uncleanness

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"Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go, declare to the Watchers of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children of earth do, and have taken unto themselves wives.

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And in chapter 51:

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And in those days the earth will return that entrusted to it, and Sheol will return that entrusted to it, which it has received, and hell will return what it owes. 2. And he will choose the just and holy from among them, for the day has come that they be saved…. 4. And in those days the mountains will skip like rams, and the hills spring like lambs satisfied with milk, and they will all be angels in heaven.

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And chapter 62:

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And the just and the chosen will have risen from the earth, and will have ceased to cast down their faces, and will be clothed with the garments of glory. 16. And these will be the garments of life before the Lord of the spirits; and your garments will not become old, and your glory will not decrease before the Lord of the spirits

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:loser:

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You think 1 Enoch was the most influential Jewish "scripture" (it wasn't considered scripture to the Jews outside of possibly the Essenes) to the New Testament?
:lol:

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If you only realized how dumb your arguments are in relation to historical facts.
:lol:

You claim as divinely inspired the body of scriptures preserved by rabbinic Judaism - the same body of scripture “Jesus” rejected when he told the temple authorities they didn’t know the true scripture.
:rotflmao:

I ain’t reading nor responding to the rest of your nonsense.

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It was 15 words (in English translations). It wasn’t as if he needed to have a copy of 1 Enoch sitting nearby to quote the prophesy if it was well known. In a mostly oral society, they would have had a lot of things memorized. And again, even if he was quoting directly from 1 Enoch, that does not mean the whole book was considered authentic, much less authoritative. That’s speculation on your part, and an illogical leap.

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You should probably re-read my post on 5:8 at 1:09am to METAL.

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Tertullian was the strongest proponent for Enoch being canonical, but he was a supporter of the early heresy of Montanism which promoted ongoing revelation. Tertullian was big into prophesy and latched onto Enoch, likely because it is highly prophetic. Other church fathers may have had a positive view of Enochian tradition but didn’t promote it as scripture

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Let me repeat. The only manuscripts that outnumbered 1 Enoch at Qumran was Deuteronomy. 1 Enoch outnumbered every other scripture in the library they preserved.

The most influential Jewish scriptures to New Testament authors was 1 Enoch. That’s a fact that I know you will deny only because you secretly value Roman Catholic tradition of the 4th century rather than the traditions of the earliest Christians.

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The Jews by and large rejected it as canonical, and it wasn’t generally included in canon lists of Christians outside of Ethiopia.

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It’s because Christians in the second through fourth centuries didn’t understand the earlier more original forms of Christianity. They didn’t understand the conflict between the pre-Christians groups like the Essenes of Qumran and Philo and the authorities that ran the temple In Jerusalem. The earliest Christians rejected second temple Judaism, and then the Christian dummies in later centuries went back and adopted the “Jewish” scriptures of the rabbinic Jews in a response to Markion’s theology, but their main mistake was they didn’t understand the different Israelite religions nor the sect from which Christianity emerged. Rather than adopting the Old Testament scriptures of the Qumran community, they adopted the scriptures from the wrong sect of Judaism.

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Enoch is not fictitious. He was historical and survived by the historical writing of the Bible.

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:jenniferlawrenceOKgif:

Look Foo, it is an established fact that the earliest Christians and the pre-Christians before them like the Qumran community believed 1 Enoch to be divinely inspired prophecy. The New Testament is filled with ideas and theology not found in any other source in what you’d consider to be the New Testament.