re: RACISM: The fact that black doctors don't have to meet the same high standards as white

quote:

---

Why would those be mutually exclusive? How about a high MCAT score and 20 years of experience?

---

1) You would never know their MCAT score though.
2) MCAT is taken by people in the early 20s. It is a general measure of aptitude, but not even close to the best predictor of future clinical skill.

I mean, I know we all have at least that one super smart friend who has the social skills and EQ of a door knob. Being a physician is more interacting with humans, than being able to remember the citric acid cycle.

quote:

---

The insinuation is that someone who was accepted to medical school with an MCAT score that was 6 points lower than someone who was not accepted will be a worse doctor than the one who was not accepted based on MCAT scores alone.

---

"Worse doctor" is a floating signifier.
I've not used that terminology.

The rate limiting-factor to a medical license is med school admission. Meaning there are more qualified candidates than there are slots. The number of slots is artificially limited by the government. By the way, said limitation is one of the issues making our importation of FMG's so infuriating. I'd be strongly in favor of schools accepting all US applicants more capable than our current cutoff levels. Then significantly expand primary care postgrad training positions, as well as backlogged areas like Derm to accommodate the expansion.

Regardless, in a situation where one has 200 qualified applicants for 100 slots, rank choice kicks in, and the top 100 of the group are normally selected. That does not mean the remaining 100 were incapable, or will be incompetent physicians. It simply means their capacity for superior performance is anticipated to be less.

If the selection process gets corrupted (cronyism, DEI, etc), and lesser candidates of the pool are selected, overall class quality diminishes, training is less efficient in terms of bang for the buck, expectation diminishes, accommodation increases. Meanwhile more capable folks are sidelined.

Now I can argue, given the life and death nature of medicine, choosing not to admit, train, and field our best and brightest is criminally stupid. But from your social pretext, we're also discussing the social justice of punishing people (Asian American men) who have outworked, outperformed, and demonstrated higher potential than folks being awarded their slots. Is that socially just?

quote:

---

That's why you don't assume anything. Look at the data.

---

quote:

---

Do you ask your physicians for their MCAT scores before making an appointment? I'm trying to understand the relevance of harping on MCAT scores as an indicator of physician competency or success.

---

Dude...go back and read my first post again...then, if you are smart enough to understand sarcasm, you can come back here and apologize. If not, then you can post another response to this post.

quote:

---

"Worse doctor" is a floating signifier.
I've not used that terminology.

---

That wasn't some clandestine attempt at a gotcha. I could use different language to signify "not as good" or "inferior."

quote:

---

But from your social pretext,

---

To be fair, I haven't used any social pretext or social arguments in this thread... that I can recall at least.

quote:

---

But from your social pretext, we're also discussing the social justice of punishing people (Asian American men) who have outworked, outperformed, and demonstrated higher potential than folks being awarded their slots. Is that socially just?

---

There's a lot of supposition packed into this statement.

I haven't made any arguments based on fairness or justice in this thread. I don't think standardized test scores are indicators of a whole lot. This thread was started to provoke outrage that one demographic is admitted to medical school with MCAT scores that are on average 6 points lower than another demographic's average MCAT score. All of the arguments justifying this outrage hinge on the presumption that those 6 points on the MCAT determine a higher-quality practitioner. My responses deny that claim. A graduate school entrance exam score does not indicate the ceiling of a person’s professional competence, nor does it account for the non-cognitive variables like resilience, ethical judgment, and interpersonal dexterity that define high-quality patient care.

quote:

---

A graduate school entrance exam score does not indicate the ceiling of a person’s professional competence, nor does it account for the non-cognitive variables like resilience, ethical judgment, and interpersonal dexterity that define high-quality patient care.

---

I think most people agree. But those variances should not break across racial or ethnic lines. Unless you can argue that "the non-cognitive variables like resilience, ethical judgment, and interpersonal dexterity that define high-quality patient care" are more common in blacks and hispanics, while whites and asians are just better test takers.

quote:

---

I haven't made any arguments based on fairness or justice in this thread. I don't think standardized test scores are indicators of a whole lot. This thread was started to provoke outrage that one demographic is admitted to medical school with MCAT scores that are on average 6 points lower than another demographic's average MCAT score. All of the arguments justifying this outrage hinge on the presumption that those 6 points on the MCAT determine a higher-quality practitioner. My responses deny that claim. A graduate school entrance exam score does not indicate the ceiling of a person’s professional competence, nor does it account for the non-cognitive variables like resilience, ethical judgment, and interpersonal dexterity that define high-quality patient care.

---

You're just trying to derail this thread like every thread you post in. More often than not the people who do better on standardized tests are going to be more successful. Of course there are exceptions, but you know that.

quote:

---

I think most people agree. But those variances should not break across racial or ethnic lines.

---

We don't know if they do or don't. The OP is only about MCAT scores for admissions. It didn't track the admitted students across their careers to determine any correlation between MCAT scores and clinical competency or patient satisfaction.

quote:

---

We don't know if they do or don't. The OP is only about MCAT scores for admissions.

---

That's the only part the medical schools have power over.

It's dishonest to suggest they aren't doing this on purpose to meet some internal racial numbers. I don't think they even deny it, so arguing against it is dumb.

quote:

---

You're just trying to derail this thread like every thread you post in. More often than not the people who do better on standardized tests are going to be more successful. Of course there are exceptions, but you know that.

---

This is undoubtedly a generically true statement, but there is likely an inflection point where, above X score, there is little functional aptitude difference that would impact one's ability to be able to "learn" medicine. And I'd argue way more than 50% of being a doctor has nothing to do with standardized tests scores. Hence why alot of residencies, prior to the P/F Step 1 days, would have Step 1 minimums to receive an interview, but after that...candidates with a 245 v 260 wouldn't be looked at much differently.

quote:

---

Do you ask your physicians for their MCAT scores before making an appointment? I'm trying to understand the relevance of harping on MCAT scores as an indicator of physician competency

---

You are conflating Medical School applicants and physicians. First off, Med School acceptance involves far more than MCAT scores. Secondly, being a "good doctor" involves far more than Med School acceptance. But to be a "good doctor," med school acceptance is requisite.

Finally, most things bringing you to visit a doctor fall well within his/her normal training wheelhouse. As a layperson, you are more likely enamored with your doctor's compassion, personality, and organization than you are fully apprised of actual medical expertise. Awareness of expertise (or lack thereof) rarely happens until the unusual or unexpected arises.

In both instances I've had to chair subcommittees which stripped MDs of hospital credentials/privileges d/t clinical malpractice (a very big deal), the MDs were charming at bedside, and beloved by their patients who simply imagined the bedside performance matched clinical expertise.