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Started By
Message
re: Populism (and Dobbs) is the basis for "muh democracy" rants and ravings from the DEMs
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:18 am to STEVED00
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:18 am to STEVED00
quote:
Yes or no if current admin proposes a 20 week abortion ban does it pass?
I don't know.
What does that have to do with institutional influence in personal beliefs? That was the basis of this discussion tree.
1
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:18 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Right wing progressivism.
With the adoption of more leftist economic policies, yes.
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:19 am to AggieHank86
quote:
Will be downvoted by more people than read it.
Read it. Downvoted it.
I love nationwide surveys in this as it feeds the mistake that abortion should be a national issue.
Dobbs correctly recognized the error made with Roe and its progeny. It is an issue for the states (yes, the door has been left open for Congress, but there's an open question as to its constitutionality).
Regardless, that same poll on a state by state basis (you know, federalism) would likely reflect the actual legal landscape - some states very restrictive (or outright banned), some states with 15-20 cutoffs and exceptions for later ones, others wide open.
Of course, you don't see that nuance in these polls because they are based in a "national" perspective.
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:22 am to udtiger
quote:
feeds the mistake that abortion should be a national issue.
All political policies that can affect the nation can be national issues.
quote:
Of course, you don't see that nuance in these polls because they are based in a "national" perspective.
The national perspective is the dominant perspective in a nationalized 2-party system (that is becoming more polarized).
That's the only reason why idiots like Fetterman or Clay Higgins can get elected.
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:23 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
That's the underlying argument of the cultural policies of right-populists.
I’m not a populist.
quote:
Part of a liberal democracy is a belief in strong protections of personal rights. You don't see how removing perceived personal rights could be seen as being anti-democratic?
Those people don’t see gun restrictions as oppressive, so I reject the notion that this is purely about personal rights. It’s about abortion, period. Dobbs didn’t outlaw abortion. If people think it did then they’re ignorant and probably shouldn’t be part of our democratic process.
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:25 am to SlowFlowPro
That same "national" poll one a state lever could easily be presented as "majorities in 2/3 of states support significant restrictions on abortion"
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:25 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
What does that have to do with institutional influence in personal beliefs? That was the basis of this discussion tree.
You said 60% agree Dobb’s infringes on their rights (it clearly doesn’t and that is the lie being broadcast).
A higher % of Americans would be totally ok with having their “rights” infringed on to ban late term abortions.
All Dobbs did was set the stage for the people to make the decisions instead of 9 politically appointed people making the decision for them.
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:26 am to SlowFlowPro
There will be Authoritarian government regardless, and it’s just a matter of whether it’s Left (Secular Socialist) or Right(Religious Capitalist) that holds the ‘formal’ mantle of legitimacy and the Government power therein. As ‘Legitimacy’ supposedly is determined by the will/“consent of the governed” Masses, and Socialism essentially nullifies the existence of a ‘Middle Class’ as Equity policy melds it with the ‘Lower Class’. Capitalism creates a Middle Class and Socialism negates it. IMO, given the massive populations that High Tech will make jobless coupled with the power of Envy, then Socialist ideology will have it’s effect as long as the massive population and high tech exists. People love freedom but they love free and good stuff just as much. Relative Affluence is on the chopping block.
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:27 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Right wing progressivism.
With the adoption of more leftist economic policies, yes.
They're open to socialism. We've had several threads about it lately.
I said it years ago, Trump would lead the right into accepting leftist economic policies.
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:28 am to Flats
quote:
I’m not a populist.
It's not exclusive to populism, but I was keeping the thread on track with OP (Which is about populism)
quote:
Those people don’t see gun restrictions as oppressive, so I reject the notion that this is purely about personal rights.
That's just an in/out group dynamic (which was referenced in this thread already).
quote:
If people think it did then they’re ignorant and probably shouldn’t be part of our democratic process.
Dobbs outlawed abortion in certain states. That's not disputable (and all that matters for this discsusion).
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:29 am to Flats
quote:
Dobbs didn’t outlaw abortion. If people think it did then they’re ignorant and probably shouldn’t be part of our democratic process
Ding
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:30 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
I said it years ago, Trump would lead the right into accepting leftist economic policies.
Like I said on OP, there is a reason unions align with right-populism in a postmodern, technocratic society.
See Rog? We agree again.
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:33 am to RCDfan1950
quote:
There will be Authoritarian government regardless
Naw. That's just polarity-based myopia.
quote:
and it’s just a matter of whether it’s Left (Secular Socialist) or Right(Religious Capitalist)
I don't know if there are many legit "Religious capitalist" pols out there. As the OP stated, right-populism had to develop more authoritarian economic policies to gain traction. You see this across the spectrum (and with Trump in the US).
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:36 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Dobbs outlawed abortion in certain states. That's not disputable (and all that matters for this discsusion).
No. It did not. It is completely disingenuous to make that statement.
What it said was there was no constitutional right to abortion that would impede individual states from making their own laws regarding the issue.
The ACTUAL decision was to find the 15 week cutoff in the Mississippi law at issue was not an impermissible restriction on a "woman's right to choose" (if there was a constitutional right) and that there was no such right under the Constitution.
Period.
This post was edited on 11/5/22 at 10:39 am
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:38 am to RCDfan1950
quote:
There will be Authoritarian government regardless,
I'm not voting for another politician for national office again. I give up.
All I care about is local. All the authoritarians can fight to see which type of populism (a race to the bottom) we end up with.
All the right is doing is positioning itself barely to the right of Progressivism and that's not good enough.
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:41 am to udtiger
quote:de jure? Of course not. De facto? Absolutely.
Dobbs outlawed abortion in certain states. That's not disputable (and all that matters for this discsusion).quote:
No. It did not.
But the average voter does not understand this distinction, any more than he understands the distinction between correlation and causation.
“Dobbs came down. One second later, abortion became illegal in my state. Ergo, Dobbs caused abortion to become illegal in my state.”
This post was edited on 11/5/22 at 10:53 am
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:42 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
postmodern, technocratic society.
Because technocrats are always wrong and don't value labor ?
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:42 am to AggieHank86
quote:
But the average voter does not understand this distinction, any more than he understands the distinction between correlation and causation
Slo is a lawyer.
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:42 am to udtiger
quote:
No. It did not. It is completely disingenuous to make that statement.
Abortion was legal in LA the day before Dobbs.
Abortion became illegal in LA the day Dobbs was issued.
quote:
What it said was there was no constitutional right to abortion that would impede individual states from making their own laws regarding the issue.
Which overrode 40 years of precedent recognizing this right, which had a national impact on abortion.
quote:
The ACTUAL decision was to find the 15 week cutoff in the Mississippi law at issue was not an impermissible restriction on a "woman's right to choose"
It went further than just this.
quote:
there was no such right under the Constitution.
Yes, which is why if abortion is illegal in any state, then that's all that matters for this discussion.
A right, as in a national one, would not permit that sort of regulation on perceived liberty/rights. That's the whole point of having federal rights. They restrain both fedgov AND states.
Posted on 11/5/22 at 10:43 am to Turbeauxdog
quote:
Because technocrats are always wrong and don't value labor ?
What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
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