re: Pope Leo: If You Promote War You’re Not A Christian

Are you a believer in the Doctrine of Eternal Security - Once Saved Always Saved? Saved and forgiven for all Sins, past, present and future?

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It's not surprising that the Pope would make such anti-biblical statements. Popes have gone their own way since at least the early middle ages.

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Are you saying that promoting wars and looking for ways to wage more war is Biblical and Christian? Is that your argument here in this thread?

War is inevitable. It always has been. Those that have the luxury to preach peace under any circumstances, are protected by those willing to wage war.

This includes the Pope.

The Catholic Church holds the greatest wealth in the world. If there were no protections of the Church assets, in Italy and around the world, how long do we think it would take for them to be pillaged by Muslims?

Let me start by saying that I'm not a Catholic, but I am a Protestant who believes that the Bible and early Christian practice teach that a person must put forth effort to do good and avoid sin in order to be a part of the Kingdom of God and find himself on the right side of the final judgment.

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because you can’t save yourself. Only Jesus can, and it’s a gift He paid for in full, and you don’t work for gifts you’re trying to pay for. You accept them by faith.

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I agree.

My own efforts would have been completely inadequate to establish my righteousness in God's eyes. Jesus' sacrifice broke the power of sin and death to make it possible for me to be an adopted child of God.

The question we have before us is whether Christians (people who have repented, been baptized, and accepted Jesus as their savior) must try to do good and avoid sin (which could be termed as "works"), or if, as you put it, works are an effect of salvation. I hold that the Bible teaches that works are not an effect of salvation because it tells us that Christians (saved persons) can sin and should avoid doing that to avoid negative consequences, that we must strive to do what is right, and that we must persevere to the end in these efforts. (It also teaches that it's possible for non-saved people to do things that are good and praiseworthy as well as Christians, but you and I would agree that this would not lead to their salvation.)

1. Christians (saved people) can sin:

The following verses were addressed to Christians:

Romans 6:12 – Do not let sin reign in your mortal body.

Galatians 5:16 – Walk by the Spirit to resist fleshly desires.

1 John 2:1 – My dear children, I write this so you will not sin.

1 Peter 2:11 – Abstain from sinful desires that wage war against your soul.

2. Christians must actively do what is right:

James 4:17: "If anyone, then, knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, it is sin."

Romans 12:17: "Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone."

1 John 3:18: "Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth."

3. Christians must persevere to the end to be saved:

Galatians 6:9: "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

James 1:12 — "Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him."

Matthew 24:10-13: At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Revelation 2:10: "Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life."

There are earthly consequences as well as relational roadblocks to fellowship with God due to sin on this earth, and we all pay for them one way or another in this life of ours, but those are relational issues. If they are salvational issues then we have a very real problem reconciling that with Jesus on the cross, and upon finishing it, He sat down at the right hand of the Father job complete.

If our salvation is not based in Jesus alone, then we are in essence co-saviors of ourselves and that’s never been God’s will for mankind. It’s our inability to live the law in perfection as well as our sin nature of course which necessitated Jesus’ sacrifice, and we are only under one covenant and that’s under grace in Jesus. We are not instructed to mix Moises and Jesus. Jesus was God’s plan all along, and His will for mankind is to believe upon His Son for salvation, not ourselves and our self righteousness, such as the Jews did.

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Christians must persevere to the end to be saved:

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Context is absolutely critical to understanding scripture.


Persevering in the faith in Jesus, not in sinless perfection. That’s impossible and anyone who’s ever tried can attest to the fact. Paul called himself a wretched man because of his struggles with sin, but also knew and was convinced of His salvation because it was in Jesus and not himself.

Too often, because of not contextualizing scripture, religion plucks scripture out of context and puts in some kind of salvation gumbo, whilst ignoring the very simplicity of the good news of the gospel in the process, and so ends up with believers who do not have any real assurance of their salvation because the lense they were handed to understand scripture is the problem, and you then find people going to an alter multiple, multi-le, multiple times over the course of their life to give their heart to Jesus, ask Jesus into their heart, give their life to Jesus when Jesus gave His life for them, saying sinners prayers and never the same one twice, and repenting of sins as if changing their minds bout sin was necessary or commanded for salvation to take place. The concept was to change their minds obit who or what they were trusting in, not change behavior only Jesus can do over time.

That is exactly what religion does. It gets you on a hamster wheel to chase a carrot, not frees you, for if you were ever truly free, then you would not have any need for religion, and that can’t be.

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Context is absolutely critical to understanding scripture.

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I agree.

I've presented many verses to support my point that eternal security is an incorrect understanding of salvation and contradicts scripture and early church teaching. I don't believe you have presented any to support your view.

There's a reason why this idea of how salvation works was unknown for the first 1800 years of the Christian Church, and that reason is that it was unknown in the New Testament and was not found in the teaching of the Apostles. If you are correct, then all Christians everywhere were incorrect about how salvation works for over a thousand years.

You haven't supported your position with scripture, and until you can, I'm not interested in continuing this discussion because it isn't productive.

If you take anything the pope says as anything more than an individual's opinion, you're not a Christian. Clearly he purposefully forgot the peacemakers part. Anyway.....

Sure Jan.

Results of my research into your non-denomination.

1) It is a denomination that was founded in the year 1965 A.D. The denomination is called the Calvary Chapel Association.

2) There are exactly two CCA churches in the state of Louisiana - one in Baton Rouge and one in Lafayette.

3) Belief in the Rapture.

4) Belief in the Doctrine of Eternal Security.

5) Belief in the Doctrine of the Trinity

Does this describe your church and your personal theology?