re: Pope Leo: If You Promote War You’re Not A Christian

I really do not care what Sir Popus says or believes. He is not a sincere, credible man, imho. He probably is an authority on priest pedophilia and grifting, however? Just my opinion.

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I'm not interested in continuing this discussion because it isn't productive.

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You have reached the logical and correct solution. It's a fool's errand to argue about Religion on a message board. Nobody will be persuaded away from their beliefs.

Heck, we can't even get everybody around here to agree that the Earth is more than 6,000 years old and that there were not Dinosaurs on Noah's Ark.

It's irrational to keep arguing about these same issues over and over again. I do appreciate it when folks share their beliefs, but, there's no point in arguing with somebody.

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Jesus expects you to be a pussy.”

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Jesus was absolutely a pacifist but keep telling yourself otherwise

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The good Lord did not bless the USA with a $2 Trillion defense budget to not use it. Has the Pope not considered this?

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It was promised to the jews 3000 years ago

Here's a question for you Leo...are you a Christian if you sexually abuse young males? Are you a Christian if you are a catholic priest and you abuse young alter boys?
How about you tend to your house and leave the politics to those who choose to be in politics?

Right, you would be a Muslim.

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I've presented many verses to support my point that eternal security is an incorrect understanding of salvation and contradicts scripture and early church teaching. I don't believe you have presented any to support your view.

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I know you weren't responding to me, but the idea of eternal security (what we calvinists call the perserverence/preservation of the saints) is absolutely biblical.

It's the logical conclusion of our moral inability to believe in Christ without being "born again" by the Spirit. God must make us alive, and in doing so, He gives us a new heart and desire for Christ. That desire is part of our "new man", and since we are forever changed, we will forever trust in the Lord. It's also the logical conclusion of Jesus knowing who His sheep are, and dying for them. Jesus cannot fail in His mission, so if it were possible for all to reject (even His elect) Him, then He could have died without effect. Since God accomplishes all He wills to accomplish, that can't happen. There is much more that I could say, but I'll go to the Scriptures:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." -John 10:27–28


"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." -2. Philippians 1:6


"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined... and those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." -Romans 8:29–30


"...who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son." -1 Corinthians 1:8–9


"...you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it..." -Ephesians 1:13–14


"For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 8:38–39


"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." -1 Peter 1:3–5


"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out... And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day." -John 6:37–40


Romans 8:28–39 (the entire passage) - teaches election, justification, resurrection, intercession for those whom God saves and keeps


"Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me... I kept them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction..."Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am..." -John 17:11–12, 24

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Nothing that the Pope said overturns the Doctrine of the Just War. That Doctrine is still in place and controlling.

Nothing the Pope said overturns the International Law of Armed Conflict. That law still applies.

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I know you are trying to wriggle out of this, but I'm not going to let you

My statement had nothing to do with the actual overturning of church doctrine. I know that the Pope's statement is non-binding and does not change what the church officially teaches on the subject of war.

Here is my original statement in the thread, which you replied to: "It's not surprising that the Pope would make such anti-biblical statements. Popes have gone their own way since at least the early middle ages."

I was condemning the Pope's statement as anti-biblical, and affirmed my belief that this is not an isolated example of a Pope going away from what the Bible teaches.

I know that it's inconvenient for Catholics to have a succession of Popes in recent times that say the most absurd, anti-biblical and anti-historical things in light of how it's necessary to submit to the Pope as the head of the church with "full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church" for salvation.


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The Pope hasn't completely clarified his comment, but, it's clear to me that in his opinion, violations of the Law of War and the Just War Doctrine are un-Christian behaviors. The Muslims wage war ignoring the Law of War and Just War laws, so they are obviously not doing the Christian thing.

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I have no objection to this, but as you said, he hasn't made that clarification. He made a blanket statement about war.

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It's very tough for Trump to keep nukes away from Iran and clearly abide by these laws. I wish Pope Leo would try to be more charitable towards Trump on this issue. Politically, Pope Leo is kind of a political Leftist, so that alone makes a lot of Americans angry.

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Agreed.

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So, you're message to us in this thread is that the Bible and the OT specifically teaches that some war is Godly and Biblical? How does that square with Jesus's teaching about "blessed are the peacemakers", in your opinion? In my opinion, Jesus's words condemn a "warmonger" and affirms a view that tries to impose humane rules on armed conflict, including having a Peace Settlement as an objective.

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Jesus is talking about those who make peace, and war is often used to make peace. Just as Paul affirms the government can "wield the sword" for justice, which creates peace in society, so too can violence in war be used for peaceful ends. In fact, that's an element of Just War Theory.

And let's not forget that Jesus came to create spiritual war between members of the same household, and when He returns, He will return in judgement, condemning His enemies as a King leads the charge in battle to defeat his enemies. The imagery of Jesus' return is that of blood and destruction of Christ's enemies in warfare. Whether that is literal or not is debated, but it's clear that not all war is evil inherently.

** Crusade feelings intensify **