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Started By
Message
re: NTSB info from Blackhawk helicopter’s black box recordings from the deadly DC crash
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:09 am to Lsut81
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:09 am to Lsut81
quote:
the instructor and pilot knew they were still above the 200ft.
I’m not understanding how this is anything other than Blackhawk pilot error?
She was doing the equivalent of driving in the wrong lane on an extremely busy and dangerous street and even given ATC prompts didn’t do what she was supposed to do.
Her error was so gross experienced pilots were speculating this was intentional.
This isn’t complicated. She f’ed up or and 70 people died as a result.
The only possible reasons for her not being publicly called to account by the media is her political leanings and the DEI overtones.
2
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:11 am to SPEEDY
quote:
quote:
Air traffic control screamed “pass behind the jet”
But did they really scream though?
They interpreted that as the jet that had passed them NOT the one that was about to pass them. What a cluster. I dont understand, if Im merging(ie flying in the path of landing planes).......Id certainly check my blind spot.
Can I ask again, why were we "training" around the highest profile airport in the United States.
You could simulate it in 500 differerent airports why this one??????
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:16 am to cajunangelle
quote:
It is said that the helo had their finger on the mic when that important instruction went out.
This (simultaneous keying) was also the cause of Teneriffe, the worst aviation disaster in world history.
This post was edited on 2/19/25 at 8:17 am
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:17 am to cafeaulait19
I've been a pilot for over 40 years and my problem with this is not the altimeter it's that the helicopter should not be anywhere near the final approach path of that airplane. I also heard about several similar near misses before this happened at that airport. This is a terrible oversight by ATC at that airport. A 100 feet shouldn't make the difference between life and death.
This post was edited on 2/19/25 at 8:19 am
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:19 am to OccamsStubble
Why are we flying right in front of the runway across the path of planes? Can we not just fly parallel to the runway way for a few hundred feet then cross over the airport wheee we KNOW airplanes are not flying?
It’s like we are playing frogger with planes when it’s completely free of traffic 1000ft away.
These seems so obvious, what am I missing?
It’s like we are playing frogger with planes when it’s completely free of traffic 1000ft away.
These seems so obvious, what am I missing?
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:27 am to tide06
quote:
She was doing the equivalent of driving in the wrong lane on an extremely busy and dangerous street and even given ATC prompts didn’t do what she was supposed to d
Agreed but if the rumors are true you also had an instructor in there too…so incompetence across the board here.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:34 am to tide06
quote:Because you don’t understand the conditions.
I’m not understanding how this is anything other than Blackhawk pilot error?
The ATC is asking the helicopter to spot an aircraft descending to land. If it’s a black sky, no other lights, doable.
Asking to spot one, without giving a vector to it, which was on a vector with a baseball stadium, which has pretty bright lights, a large city which is also lit up, and other planes lining up to land on different runways?
Thats why.
quote:The ATC instructions are the problem to begin with. Yes they were over altitude, which was a big factor, but the deciding factor was allowing them into the same airspace to begin with.
She was doing the equivalent of driving in the wrong lane on an extremely busy and dangerous street and even given ATC prompts didn’t do what she was supposed to do.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:37 am to llfshoals
quote:
Because you don’t understand the conditions.
What is it that I’m failing to understand about the pilot being 200+ feet above her ceiling? That and her failure to follow ATC guidance are the singular causes for this accident.
There is no situation in which that accident occurs if she’s where she’s supposed to be regardless of what she saw and when.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:39 am to cajunangelle
quote:
This wasn’t just one mistake—it was a cascade of failures.
This is always the case in a disaster. It's never a single failure.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:40 am to cajunangelle
I have asked this before and haven't gotten an answer. I still do not understand why ATC didn't instruct the Blackhawk to just stop and wait, or the Blackhawk instructor didn't have the pilot stop and wait until they could get 100% confirmation or let things clear.
Also, is the helicopter pilot not also required to repeat back the ATC communications (like the airline pilot is) to confirm they heard it correctly?
Also, is the helicopter pilot not also required to repeat back the ATC communications (like the airline pilot is) to confirm they heard it correctly?
This post was edited on 2/19/25 at 8:45 am
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:47 am to cafeaulait19
quote:
? I mean, if they should be at 200 and they are reading 300 and 400, seems they should have been dropping altitude fast - am I missing something?
I mean I think therein lies the problem. You have conflicting altitude readings, therefore you can assume that if you don’t know your true altitude at nighttime, simply dropping altitude rapidly could also be disastrous. You’re literally in a situation where you don’t know if you’re 400ft in the air or 50ft in the air because you can’t trust your altimeter
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:49 am to Chucktown_Badger
quote:It’s a common misconception that helicopters can just “stop and hover” at anytime. They can’t.
I have asked this before and haven't gotten an answer. I still do not understand why ATC didn't instruct the Blackhawk to just stop and wait, or the Blackhawk instructor didn't have the pilot stop and wait until they could get 100% confirmation or let things clear.
The helo was traveling at probably 100-120 knots at the time of impact. It takes a while for a helicopter to slow to a hover. An ATC instruction to turn to the east would have prevented this accident.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:50 am to tide06
quote:Because you’re flying at night, over water. Yes they were over their ceiling, but if you haven’t flown at night, you just don’t know what you’re talking about. Driving a plane isn’t like driving a car. Updrafts, downdrafts, dirty air because jets are coming through. It’s very different indeed. I’m astonished they allowed traffic through at any altitude when jets are in the lane descending to land. They aren’t maneuverable at all at that time.
What is it that I’m failing to understand about the pilot being 200+ feet above her ceiling?
quote:The ATC guidance is the primary problem. It’s a shockingly bad instruction. I’m astonished there hasn’t been a collision prior. There was a near miss only the night before.
That and her failure to follow ATC guidance are the singular causes for this accident.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:51 am to cajunangelle
So pilot altimeter was only off by 22 ft and showed they were higher than they actually were, while the instructor altimeter was off 122 ft also showing they were higher than actually.
Both altimeters showed they were 100 or 200 higher than their required safe ceiling yet neither took any corrective action.
Pilots fricked up, faulty altimeter should have helped them as the wrong numbers just exacerbated that they were even higher than they were supposed to be.
Do they think we can’t read or perform arithmetic and will just stop at faulty altimeter ?
Both altimeters showed they were 100 or 200 higher than their required safe ceiling yet neither took any corrective action.
Pilots fricked up, faulty altimeter should have helped them as the wrong numbers just exacerbated that they were even higher than they were supposed to be.
Do they think we can’t read or perform arithmetic and will just stop at faulty altimeter ?
This post was edited on 2/19/25 at 8:52 am
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:56 am to SquatchDawg
quote:
Does anyone here know the process for setting altimeters for helos prior to take off? Do they have to adjust for density altitude prior to takeoff like with general aviation?
Yes and yes. Do they always? No.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 8:59 am to SirWinston
quote:
This was more on whoever planned and authorized this training mission than on anyone in the copter imo
Care to expand? Army helos do these training flights in busy air space on the regular. Some airports my black hawk crew son has flown in and out of:
ATL
BNA
DFW
CLE
DCA
LGA
JFK
PHL
And many more. It’s training.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 9:02 am to Kjnstkmn
quote:Have you flown, at night, at low altitude?
Do they think we can’t read or perform arithmetic and will just stop at faulty altimeter ?
If the answer is no, and you have conflicting information on your altimeter you’re flying basically by mark-1 eyeball. Which extremely difficult over water at night.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 9:07 am to cajunangelle
I'll wait for the official NTSB report.
But if found that the female pilot is not at fault, I'm sure that all the people on this board that was trashing her out will apologize.
But if found that the female pilot is not at fault, I'm sure that all the people on this board that was trashing her out will apologize.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 9:20 am to L1C4
quote:I wouldn’t hold my breath.
But if found that the female pilot is not at fault, I'm sure that all the people on this board that was trashing her out will apologize.
They were at fault, the IP as well. What the people trashing the pilot constantly overlook is who has the responsibility for the aircraft in the air. The ATC does their job well almost always. But when they make assumptions instead of giving directions, as they did here, things like this can happen.
I’d bet significant amounts of money the routine “request visual separation” by the military aircraft in that area is a thing of the past today.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 9:22 am to llfshoals
quote:
Because you’re flying at night, over water. Yes they were over their ceiling, but if you haven’t flown at night, you just don’t know what you’re talking about. Driving a plane isn’t like driving a car. Updrafts, downdrafts, dirty air because jets are coming through. It’s very different indeed.
This isn't a new flight path. Anyone who has ever come into Reagan at night knows that's a tight approach, making following flight directives more important than the vast majority of airports.
The pilot and instructor both knew their path before they took off, their ceiling and their responsibilities during the course of that flight.
If she wasn't comfortable maintaining a 200' ceiling near a busy airport she and or the instructor should've scrubbed that flight. They didn't.
If she hadn't exceeded that ceiling she and everyone else wouldn't be dead.
Blackhawk pilots are trained to fly aggressive and somewhat dangerous flight plans because that's how you avoid detection and that's how you insert special ops guys. Its in her job description, its not like she signed up to fly a traffic chopper.
This is on her.
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