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re: MPD policy allows knee to the neck restraint. Wow!
Posted on 5/30/20 at 12:15 pm to jimdog
Posted on 5/30/20 at 12:15 pm to jimdog
quote:
I would have removed my knee and let the guy breath and had my hand on a baton or worse.
Didn’t the ME already come out and say the knee did not do this?
I am unsure what the accusation is with the knee. The ME referenced it again as a dangerous potential restraint, but it was not used to restrict his breathing.
I obviously think the situation should have been handled differently, and they should be scrutinized and appropriately punished.
This post was edited on 5/30/20 at 12:16 pm
Posted on 5/30/20 at 12:17 pm to MeatCleaverWeaver
quote:
According to the Minneapolis Police Policy Manual, the restraint used was in policy and it also indicates that training is given to officers on the maneuver.
According to the policy, a neck restraint can be used as a form of a “non-deadly option” and is defined as “compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck).”
So you're saying it's incompetent rules made by the leadership within the People's Republic of Minnesota?

Posted on 5/30/20 at 12:21 pm to Colonel Flagg
quote:
Didn’t the ME already come out and say the knee did not do this?
He said that preliminary findings did not indicate traumatic asphyxiation as the primary cause and that COD looked like combination of underlying conditions, possible intoxicants and being restrained, IIRC.
Posted on 5/30/20 at 12:22 pm to Colonel Flagg
Breaking it down to it's simplest form, what we've got is a video of cop with knee on arrestee's neck, arrestee pleads that he can't breathe, arrestee then no longer breathing.
ME isn't final word on the issue of cause of death, it's not necessarily something a jury is legally required to accept. Which is evidenced by the practice of one or the other parties in a criminal trial wherein death occurred retaining their own medical expert to assess the same information that the official ME considered (to the extent that all the same information is available to medical expert), and said expert offers their own opinion at trial. The jury can accept that expert's opinion just as well as it could the official ME's opinion.
ME isn't final word on the issue of cause of death, it's not necessarily something a jury is legally required to accept. Which is evidenced by the practice of one or the other parties in a criminal trial wherein death occurred retaining their own medical expert to assess the same information that the official ME considered (to the extent that all the same information is available to medical expert), and said expert offers their own opinion at trial. The jury can accept that expert's opinion just as well as it could the official ME's opinion.
Posted on 5/30/20 at 12:24 pm to PhDoogan
I read that as the overall restraint was the problem. So why are the other two policeman not arrested and charged similarly?
Posted on 5/30/20 at 12:27 pm to MeatCleaverWeaver
That policy manual WAS available online.
Not anymore.
Not anymore.
Posted on 5/30/20 at 12:28 pm to davyjones
quote:
ME isn't final word on the issue of cause of death, it's not necessarily something a jury is legally required to accept. Which is evidenced by the practice of one or the other parties in a criminal trial wherein death occurred retaining their own medical expert to assess the same information that the official ME considered (to the extent that all the same information is available to medical expert), and said expert offers their own opinion at trial. The jury can accept that expert's opinion just as well as it could the official ME's opinion.
The prosecution’s neutral party ME gave those opinions. The more socially acceptable finding of the ME would have been them to blame the knee completely. Your comment makes no sense. It would be a defendant bringing in another ME in this situation.
The civil case of the family against the city will never go to any sort of trial.
This post was edited on 5/30/20 at 12:30 pm
Posted on 5/30/20 at 12:29 pm to Colonel Flagg
Generally not a criminal offense to not intervene to prevent the harm of another.
That doesn't mean they won't be sued civilly for failing to intervene.
That doesn't mean they won't be sued civilly for failing to intervene.
Posted on 5/30/20 at 12:31 pm to PhDoogan
quote:
Generally not a criminal offense to not intervene to prevent the harm of another.
The last Seinfeld episode says hello
Posted on 5/30/20 at 12:35 pm to Colonel Flagg
It's not "the prosecution's ME". But correct in that it is a neutral party. And true, it's more often the defense that would question a coroner's findings and thereafter retain their own expert for a different opinion, however it's not completely uncommon for the prosecution to be in the position to have to seek another opinion if they don't agree with the county/parish ME, obviously meaning that ME's findings are adverse to the prosecution's case.
Prosecution and official ME can easily be at odds with one another in terms of their own conclusions/opinions.
Prosecution and official ME can easily be at odds with one another in terms of their own conclusions/opinions.
Posted on 5/30/20 at 12:40 pm to davyjones
quote:
Prosecution and official ME can easily be at odds with one another in terms of their own conclusions/opinions.
How does the prosecution have any credibility in that situation? A corrupt ME?
I know the federal government is getting involved so I could see them bringing their own person in; however, a prosecution not accepting their own (govt.) local ME’s findings, just because it doesn’t agree with their case, sounds ridiculous.
This post was edited on 5/30/20 at 12:41 pm
Posted on 5/30/20 at 12:53 pm to Colonel Flagg
But that's the thing, the ME and prosecutor's office are not on the same team. The ME is not seeking to provide a finding that is helpful to the prosecution's case. They are completely independent of each other, although yes it's a thing that many people may perceive them as being aligned due to both being government officials. In that same vein, judges and DAs are also both government officials. And we know the independent separation of those positions.
So it's as simple as the DA could have cause to believe that the ME is wrong in his/her conclusions. ME's job/official duty is to render an opinion as to cause of death, and that could be helpful or harmful to the DA's case/position. And as mentioned before, a ME's findings aren't legally binding in trial. Carries hefty weight, sure, but not unimpeachable.
So it's as simple as the DA could have cause to believe that the ME is wrong in his/her conclusions. ME's job/official duty is to render an opinion as to cause of death, and that could be helpful or harmful to the DA's case/position. And as mentioned before, a ME's findings aren't legally binding in trial. Carries hefty weight, sure, but not unimpeachable.
Posted on 5/30/20 at 1:00 pm to davyjones
My point is the prosecution loses total credibility imo by not accepting the neutral party ME that is provided to them. There would need to be a valid reason imo to use someone else (we seem to agree). That reasoning can not be because they disagree with the findings because it hurts their case.
A DA shopping for an ME for poor reasoning is not justice imo. A jury going against impartial science should also be frightening.
A DA shopping for an ME for poor reasoning is not justice imo. A jury going against impartial science should also be frightening.
This post was edited on 5/30/20 at 1:02 pm
Posted on 5/30/20 at 1:21 pm to Colonel Flagg
I guess I'm getting the vibe that such a move would be seen as non-credible, shady, unprincipled, etc etc by a jury because the jury would be wondering why this govt office is refusing to accept the finding of that govt office. And sure, there could be that perception. But that's where ability and skill come into it by way of the prosecutor carefully laying out the basis of their act in seeking a second opinion. Keep in mind, this is not at all a rare action in terms of the defense at least.
Obviously the most significant component of the basis that would be laid out by the prosecution in, say, closing argument is that there was simply a differing of opinions between the DA and ME. And in the interest of justice the DA was compelled to seek a second look at the matter.
Look at it this way: as most around here are proposing, the current ME findings don't appear to support the charges by the DA. Yet DA moved forward with charges despite that proposition. Should that continue to be the case, clearly the DA wouldn't proceed to trial using this ME's findings.
MEs can simply be wrong.
Obviously the most significant component of the basis that would be laid out by the prosecution in, say, closing argument is that there was simply a differing of opinions between the DA and ME. And in the interest of justice the DA was compelled to seek a second look at the matter.
Look at it this way: as most around here are proposing, the current ME findings don't appear to support the charges by the DA. Yet DA moved forward with charges despite that proposition. Should that continue to be the case, clearly the DA wouldn't proceed to trial using this ME's findings.
MEs can simply be wrong.
Posted on 5/30/20 at 1:40 pm to davyjones
quote:
Yet DA moved forward with charges despite that proposition.
I think it clear they moved forward with the charges already only because of public pressure.
Posted on 5/30/20 at 1:45 pm to Colonel Flagg
That's definitely playing a large role, but going into it with an on-its-face defective case, without having an alternative reasonable basis/plan, is borderline prosecutorial misconduct.
Posted on 5/30/20 at 1:50 pm to davyjones
I don’t think anyone in government in Minnesota has a plan.
Posted on 5/30/20 at 1:54 pm to davyjones
I think they’re still going to have restraint asphyxia as the cause of death. But I’m never surprised by government incompetence.
Posted on 5/30/20 at 1:57 pm to Colonel Flagg
Well. That's actually a pretty solid point. I take it all back.
The governor and Patrick Dempsey lookalike mayor of Minneapolis are uniquely unprepared it appears. And that's the top levels of government. Local DAs may well be a scary thing.
The governor and Patrick Dempsey lookalike mayor of Minneapolis are uniquely unprepared it appears. And that's the top levels of government. Local DAs may well be a scary thing.
Posted on 5/30/20 at 2:08 pm to the808bass
Yeah, I'm sorta going back and forth on this. Here's what the coroner found in that Eric Garner case, and that sure seemed rather straightforward criminal act by the cops in that matter (IMO), but despite that appearance, this was the gist of the finding:
"Specifically, an autopsy indicated that Garner's death resulted from '[compression] of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police'.[1] Asthma, heart disease, and obesity were cited as contributing factors".
And the grand jury in that case elected to decline any indictment.
Eric Garner wiki
"Specifically, an autopsy indicated that Garner's death resulted from '[compression] of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police'.[1] Asthma, heart disease, and obesity were cited as contributing factors".
And the grand jury in that case elected to decline any indictment.
Eric Garner wiki

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