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Message
re: Lower and Middle Class America has declined over the past 50 years
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:50 am to Jake88
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:50 am to Jake88
quote:
So?
So how do you know, as government, what the first steps are? You don't seem to have any criteria. If we're not going to produce everything, and you acknowledge that we're not and that's fine, what is the process for deciding what to protect?
0
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:50 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Which jobs exist in America currently?
The McDonalds jobs do, across the country in large volume.
Which jobs do not exist in America currently?
The "jobs and manufacturing being shipped overseas for decades" cited in your OP.
There are around 700,000 people working at McDonald’s and 13 million people working in the manufacturing sector in the US.
Is your Google down this morning? Yikes
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:51 am to Azkiger
quote:
"More isn't more."
The circulation is the same.
quote:
So no one receiving welfare is currently working?
That's specifically not what I said.
quote:
I can only assume you're speaking of the ones currently not working.
Clearly.
quote:
There are plenty of people recieving welfare who would upgrade to a better paying job. That better paying job would necessarily decrease (eliminate?) the welfare they recieve.
These jobs exist, but are either too skilled or too difficult and welfare is a better option.
Moving lower-level manufacturing jobs back does nothing for this problem. That's the point.
quote:
but you can't pretend there are no boons (which you did).
Some now-poor people will be slightly better off, but the aggregate will be negative. If that paradigm is a "boon", then fine. Define the word how you want to keep your argument malleable.
At the end of the day, the economy in the aggregate will be worse off.
quote:
There are no solutions, just trade off? You seem to think that overseas manufacturing is purely a solution with no trade offs.
Of course there are trade offs. The aggregate benefit is better than the alternative plan you're proposing (as I've shown over and over ITT)
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:51 am to texag7
In 1988, my parents were grossing 40k a year. They had paid for their house, sent me to private school and put me through college with no debt.
Edit: didn’t realize thread was 7pages . Sorry for the abrupt thought. The ADD is real.
Edit: didn’t realize thread was 7pages . Sorry for the abrupt thought. The ADD is real.
This post was edited on 4/3/25 at 8:53 am
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:52 am to Taxing Authority
quote:I just don't get the emotional irrational anti-tariff schtick.
Whooosh.
We have a $37Trillion debt!
Let's repeat that, because some folks are apparently unaware the fact comes with consequence.
We have a $37Trillion debt!
Trump inherited a $1.8 TRILLION budget deficit including $882B in cost of carry on our debt. Cost of carry on the same amount of debt would increase > $200B this year d/t rising treasury rates.
At some point, WE HAVE TO PAY our way.
What is a better way than targeting the previously untaxed trade deficit?
You guys are arguing as if you're oblivious to the above realities.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:52 am to texag7
quote:
There are around 700,000 people working at McDonald’s and 13 million people working in the manufacturing sector in the US.
Holy fricking shite another pivot
I even used YOUR EXACT WORDS from OP to define what we were discussing, and you still just ignore your own words to pivot
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:53 am to prouddawg
quote:
In 1988, my parents earned 40k a year. They had paid for their house, sent me to private school and put me through college with no debt.
It’s much better now though! If all these jobs come back people might not be able to afford homes in 2025 and college tuition might get too pricey.
Oh wait.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:53 am to SlowFlowPro
Your McDonalds worker strawman argument is unbelievably ignorant. Anyone that has worked in a typical industrial setting knows this is complete bullshite and I am tired of seeing this lie you are promoting.
A similar argument would be to say a high school student that worked at the welcoming desk at a high school has essentially the same skill set and responsibilities as your lawyer job; see below:
- answering the phone, even when they are lots of calls and it is very busy
- direct contact with the public, answering questions, following the protocol and the Q&A sheet for the school
- answering emails for the school, responding to questions
- posting on social media, keeping up information on the web page and following and responding to comments (also has time to keep up with her own social media accounts, posting more than 100 items a day, much like you do)
A similar argument would be to say a high school student that worked at the welcoming desk at a high school has essentially the same skill set and responsibilities as your lawyer job; see below:
- answering the phone, even when they are lots of calls and it is very busy
- direct contact with the public, answering questions, following the protocol and the Q&A sheet for the school
- answering emails for the school, responding to questions
- posting on social media, keeping up information on the web page and following and responding to comments (also has time to keep up with her own social media accounts, posting more than 100 items a day, much like you do)
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:54 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
I just don't get the emotional irrational anti-tariff schtick.
We have a $37Trillion debt!
Let's repeat that, because some folks are apparently unaware the fact comes with consequence.
We have a $37Trillion debt!
That is a different discussion than that tariff one.
quote:
What is a better way than targeting the previously untaxed trade deficit?
The problem is that this is inefficient economically and will lead to a smaller GDP which will lead to less tax revenue. That's the discussion that we're having right now.
This post was edited on 4/3/25 at 8:55 am
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:55 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Holy fricking shite another pivot I even used YOUR EXACT WORDS from OP to define what we were discussing, and you still just ignore your own words to pivot
I never said ALL of the manufacturing jobs left.
You have absolutely no case or point. fricking embarrassing dude. Youre usually better than this (slightly).
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:55 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
That would make domestic lower-level manufacturing more economically viable, no? Due to shipping costs from replacing these jobs abroad?
Yes. Paying less for distribution is another boon for domestic production.
quote:
Well we can't, so you're arguing with how markets work with reality instead of answering the question.
I'm pointing out how ridiculous your comparison is.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:56 am to Azkiger
quote:No you aren't. You are talking about government forcing more domestic manufacturing through ineffeciency and wasted capital.
I'm speaking of more domestic manufacturing.
quote:If you don't know, how do you I'm wrong?
What specific policies was Obama promoting with his pie story?
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:56 am to texag7
quote:
I never said ALL of the manufacturing jobs left.
Neither did I. I specifically used your words to define the class of jobs being discussed, and then you create a straw man arguing ALL jobs.
Do you want to re-read your own words and respond to the post again?
quote:
Which jobs exist in America currently?
The McDonalds jobs do, across the country in large volume.
Which jobs do not exist in America currently?
The "jobs and manufacturing being shipped overseas for decades" cited in your OP.
This post was edited on 4/3/25 at 8:56 am
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:56 am to Taxing Authority
quote:
This is the broken window fallacy.
"Americans having jobs is no different than illegal property damage."
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:57 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
and then you create a straw man arguing ALL jobs.
No I didn’t. That was you
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:58 am to Azkiger
quote:
Yes. Paying less for distribution is another boon for domestic production.
That cost is already baked into the calculation, currently. The increased wages and costs will offset that "boon", which is why we currently ship those products and are better off today.
quote:
I'm pointing out how ridiculous your comparison is.
It's not. You just are arguing with reality to try to avoid the facts being presented.
If the jobs "shipped overseas" were as productive as McDonalds workers, those "shipped" jobs woudl be domestic.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:59 am to texag7
quote:
No I didn’t. That was you
No. I used your words.
When you said, The "jobs and manufacturing being shipped overseas for decades" cited in your OP, were YOU claiming this meant ALL manufacturing jobs?
I'll repost again.
quote:
Which jobs exist in America currently?
The McDonalds jobs do, across the country in large volume.
Which jobs do not exist in America currently?
The "jobs and manufacturing being shipped overseas for decades" cited in your OP.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 9:01 am to Taxing Authority
quote:
No you aren't. You are talking about government forcing more domestic manufacturing through ineffeciency and wasted capital.
I'm advocating for no tariffs. If we have to use tariffs to get to that point fine.
quote:
If you don't know, how do you I'm wrong?
I never said you were wrong, I just pointed out how weak that specific clip was. Quite literally, outside of the word pie, there was no other relation.
It's the definition of a low IQ take. You didn't think I would catch something so simple?
Posted on 4/3/25 at 9:01 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
This is the problem with the "halcyon factory" class, who, when presented with a changing economy and need for adaptation, refused and complained their easy, overpaid factory jobs were gone.
Your last part is hyperbole I guess from the heat of this debate, because my daddy worked in manufacturing for nearly 40 years and I can assure you his job was not easy and given that he could've got killed at any point in time while he was working, by no means overpaid.
But the folks who are flaming you and will probably flame me, but that's all right, don't understand that when these new manufacturing plants open here, the majority of the manufacturing that is going to be done is going to be automated and robotic and will not require the involvement of as many human beings as there were in the halcyon days of manufacturing. People are going to have to have some level of post-secondary training ... not college but at least a six-month certificate ... to get their foot in the door, and that door will be closed to anyone who can only offer a high school diploma, a strong back and a good work ethic.
And there is nothing Donald Trump or Joe Biden or Xi Jiping or any human being walking this planet can do about it because that world doesn't exist anymore and it's not just because of globalization, it's because of technological advancement and that's a genie that cannot be put back into the lamp.
This post was edited on 4/3/25 at 9:02 am
Posted on 4/3/25 at 9:02 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Free market, economic conservatives are.
I know. After all I am here. Now back to you...
I see you ran from BUGAC's thread.
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