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re: Life begins at conception.
Posted on 5/4/22 at 12:52 pm to jm_1776
Posted on 5/4/22 at 12:52 pm to jm_1776
quote:Bonobos have different genetic code from horses, and armadillos have different genetic code from toads. Does that "difference" confer "rights" onto any of those species?
Intelligence is not the only thing that makes humans different than any other living creature. It is our entire genetic code
The unique/distinguishing feature of our species is our sapience/intelligence.
1
Posted on 5/4/22 at 12:54 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
Life begins at conception. Prove me wrong.
Agreed. Relevance?
Lots of things are "alive." We kill them all the time.
Many states...Pennsylvania, for example...grant the fetus rights as a human being from the moment of conception. At that point, the fetus is defined as a person by law, and one who kills it can be prosecuted for homicides such as murder and manslaughter. If killing it is a homicide, it isn't a "thing". By legal definition, it's a person.
Pa. Cons. Stat. Ann. tit. 18. § 2601 et seq. define crimes against an unborn child, including criminal homicide, murder, voluntary manslaughter, and aggravated assault of an unborn child. Unborn child is defined as in § 3203, to mean an individual organism of the species Homo sapiens from fertilization until live birth.
38 states that treat the killing of a fetus as a homicide.
Posted on 5/4/22 at 12:58 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The text says that if she's struck that causes the child (or fruit, as it's sometimes translated) to "come forth" or to "go out" or to "depart", then the attacker should be punished. It doesn't say "miscarry" or that the child has died in that part, and that fits with what we know from the rest of the OT and the concern for children in Israel.
You listed 3 words in your own arguement, and there are probably More translations
And then on top of that you’re making an interpretation of what that means . Because none of those mean premature birth.
But children were valued but that doesn’t mean pregnancies are children. And in this case a miscarriage would involve you paying the parents.
This post was edited on 5/4/22 at 1:11 pm
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:00 pm to beulahland
quote:
Life begins at conception.
You are wrong. For life to “begin” at conception, there must have been a time before conception where there was no life. However, conception is a unification of two things that are already alive. So actually, life does not begin, because it was already there.
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:03 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
Yes, and we are attempting to determine WHY "human life" is treated differently. The answer to that question may well be the key to determining whether abortion is (or is not) acceptable.
But your answer continues to be essentially "just because it is."
It is simple.
The Declaration of Independence provides that all men are equal (for our purposes we can say people so nobody gets their panties in a wad) and that they are entitled to certain unalienable rights such as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
If we are to concede that life begins at conception, that life begins and ends with a heartbeat, all living people must then be judged by the same standard.
If applied so, abortion directly contradicts the foundation of our society as it takes away the Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness from a person.
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:05 pm to BamaGradinTn
quote:
Many states...Pennsylvania, for example...grant the fetus rights as a human being from the moment of conception.
The development into a fetus doesn't happen until the 9th week. Before that it's an embryo.
Zygote -> Embryo -> Fetus
Fertilization doesn't immediately make a human.
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:05 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
Bonobos have different genetic code from horses, and armadillos have different genetic code from toads. Does that "difference" confer "rights" onto any of those species?
What is it that gives us the ability to be intelligent life forms? It's our DNA and that DNA, which is unique to each individual human, is created at the moment of conception.
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:06 pm to TBoy
quote:Valid point. Perhaps more accurate to say that "the life of a genetically-unique organism begins at conception," but I suspect that everyone knew what we were discussing.
For life to “begin” at conception, there must have been a time before conception where there was no life. However, conception is a unification of two things that are already alive. So actually, life does not begin, because it was already there.
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:06 pm to BamaGradinTn
This is LA's law. Note the exception regarding abortions.
So its feticide except for a abortion. Doesn't make much sense to me.
La. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 14:32.5 defines feticide as the killing of an unborn child by the act, procurement, or culpable omission of a person other than the mother of the unborn child. The offense of feticide shall not include acts which cause the death of an unborn child if those acts were committed during any abortion to which the pregnant woman or her legal guardian has consented or which was performed in an emergency.
So its feticide except for a abortion. Doesn't make much sense to me.
La. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 14:32.5 defines feticide as the killing of an unborn child by the act, procurement, or culpable omission of a person other than the mother of the unborn child. The offense of feticide shall not include acts which cause the death of an unborn child if those acts were committed during any abortion to which the pregnant woman or her legal guardian has consented or which was performed in an emergency.
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:06 pm to AggieHank86
quote:So, what is the difference between a baby at birth-1day and the same baby at birth+1day? This must be defined if your view is that a baby out of the womb is different than a baby in the womb. What is the difference between a baby at birth-1day and a baby at birth-180days? Is it environment or development, in your view, that triggers these rights?
no "right" to eventually reach sapience
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:08 pm to LSUnKaty
quote:I absolutely beleive it should be a state issue
Exceptions can be made. All the better if the SCOTUS remands it back to the States, then each State can enact the exceptions preferred by it's citizens and all the nuances can be handled at the lowest level.
What is your problem with that?
I’m simply letting people know, as it relates to why some people don’t see abortion as simple as “they want to kill babies!!! “
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:10 pm to CouldCareLess
It makes sense if you think of the definition of feticide as destroying of someone else fetus without consent.
Like rape is sex without consent. With consent isn’t not illegal.
And feticide isn’t the same as killing a baby. So it’s not like it’s murder 1 without consent.
Now this might all change if RvW is officially overruled and the state makes some kind of law recognizing life from birth.
Like rape is sex without consent. With consent isn’t not illegal.
And feticide isn’t the same as killing a baby. So it’s not like it’s murder 1 without consent.
Now this might all change if RvW is officially overruled and the state makes some kind of law recognizing life from birth.
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:10 pm to WildManGoose
Human development consists of nothing but gray areas along a spectrum. In philosophical discussion/analysis, we can acknowledge this. When creating and enforcing legal codes, we just have to pick a point on which the majority can agree. It seems sloppy, but you know what they say about law and sausages.
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:11 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
I think we must answer this question in ORDER to address the propriety (or impropriety) of abortion.
No we really don't. Murder is and has always been a crime since the dawn of civilization.
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:13 pm to beulahland
You are free to believe that
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:14 pm to SammyTiger
quote:Its not? Kill a woman and have the 6 month fetus die. You will be charged with 2 counts of murder.
And feticide isn’t the same as killing a baby
This is all word salad mumbo jumbo.
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:16 pm to CouldCareLess
quote:
This is LA's law. Note the exception regarding abortions.
So its feticide except for a abortion. Doesn't make much sense to me.
La. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 14:32.5 defines feticide as the killing of an unborn child by the act, procurement, or culpable omission of a person other than the mother of the unborn child. The offense of feticide shall not include acts which cause the death of an unborn child if those acts were committed during any abortion to which the pregnant woman or her legal guardian has consented or which was performed in an emergency.
Of course it doesn't make sense. An unborn child is either a person or it isn't. The left wants to have it both ways.
Furthermore, if it's a person, it doesn't matter who the father is. It's a person, no matter if the father is the husband of the mother, the brother of the mother, or the rapist of the mother.
This post was edited on 5/4/22 at 1:23 pm
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:20 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
It makes sense if you think of the definition of feticide as destroying of someone else fetus without consent.
Destroying of someone else's fetus? Without consent? That's downright comical. Feticide isn't a property crime in any jurisdiction anywhere. It's a homicide, which by legal definition is the killing of one person by another. Feticide by definition is murder, manslaughter, or involuntary homicide, in every jurisdiction where it exists. It's not theft or destruction of property.
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:23 pm to tommy2tone1999
quote:And during that same time period, abortion (usually via abortifacient) has been a crime in some times and places and has been perfectly-legal (and even "common") in other times and places.
Murder is and has always been a crime since the dawn of civilization
As an example, see the Code of Hammurabi, when causing a miscarriage resulted in small fine ... largely different from the penalties for murder.
This post was edited on 5/4/22 at 1:26 pm
Posted on 5/4/22 at 1:25 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
And during that same time period, abortion (usually via abortifacient) has been a crime in some times and places and has been perfectly-legal (and even "common") in other times and places.
So has slavery.
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