re: Is criminalising prostitution the ultimate example of "male patriarchy"?

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There's a natural intimacy in prostitution (sex tends to do that) that is different than anything else you can compare it to.

If you want to compare prostitution, you should compare the prostitute to the apple that is being scanned at the grocery store kiosk, not the person or machine scanning it, because you aren't paying for a service she performs, you are paying for her and her body, to use it as you see fit.

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You're absolutely paying for services performed. Prostitutes don't simply take your money and then go limp for two hours. You have to negotiate the acts that are on or off the table in advance, and they'll kick you out / leave if you go beyond those.

Even if it were true that sex necessarily requires intimacy, I don't see how "intimacy" logically leads to "make illegal." (Therapists also required to develop intimacy with their clients, at least if they're worth a damn.)

Since this is about the third different ad-hoc principle you've tried and failed to articulate it sounds a lot like you're just randomly reaching for justifications for an irrational animus.

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The argument is that outlawing prostitution has created a very dangeorus black market. The sex trade will take a hit if we stop arresting people for paying or selling sex

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I'm of the opinion that the sex trade will be more prolific if prostitution is legalized. Sex traffickers and pimps will now be viewed as legit businessmen to the communities they exist within and to the customers that they deal with. If the people participating in the dangerous black market have no qualms about their participation when it's illegal, do you think legitimizing their work will make them less likely to continue with the remaining illegal practices?

I thought the same thing. Almost too specific.

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Then why not just criminalize all hateful speech, dishonesty, and prejudice too? I mean it's not illegal, and I find it immoral, so by not criminalizing it we are allowing it, and maybe even supporting it.

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Part of the problem with your examples is that they can be vague and hard to define. They could be subjective and hard to enforce, as well. Hateful speech? That's subjective and frankly it's only as "destructive" as the hearers of it allow it to be. Dishonesty? Yeah, that can be pretty destructive in certain contexts which is why there are some laws that address fraud and other forms of dishonesty. Prejudice isn't even always immoral since it is just a preconceived notion and can apply to objects as well as people, and those preconceptions can even be positive. That being said, we do have some laws against particular applications of prejudice in society.

I believe each case of "immorality" should be scrutinized to be determined whether it should be prohibited by the government or left to individuals to handle. When talking about legitimizing a line of "work" that promotes abuse of women, I don't think that's something the government should have a say in.

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Again. My issue is the criminlization. It doesn't prevent the behavior, and it instead makes it less safe, and is often associated with larger criminal network, often with mode morally reprehensible behaviors (trafficking; abuse; murder).

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It most certainly does prevent behavior just like all laws do to one extent or another. Just because a law doesn't prevent all targeted behavior doesn't mean it isn't legitimate. Hell, might as well make it legal to kill others because people still do it. Just not a good argument as I see it.

Also, legalizing prostitution will not do away with trafficking, abuse, and murder. Sure, make it legal for women 18 years or older to sell their bodies, but what about the "Johns" who still want 10-year old girls? What about those who still can't control themselves and enjoy abusing the women during sex? What about those who don't care that "no means no" and rape the prostitute? That will still happen and it will probably even increase in occurrence as prostitution becomes something more widely participated in.

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I find it off that for someone who despises the profession as much as you, that somehow you're in situations where you can intentionally interact with them.

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I live in SF, dude.

I don't go out of my way to interact with prostitutes. In fact, I never sought one out and never utilized their "service" but when I walk through the tenderloin they are on every corner trying to get your attention.

A good example of what I don't like about prostitutes is what happened when a friend of mine who was a pot dealer let a prostitute move into his apartment.

When I went to visit him one day she was there so I just treated her like a regular person. My friend had to leave the apartment for a few minutes and when I was just talking to her she stuck her pussy in my face and wanted me to pay her for one of her "services".

I was being decent to her by treating her like a regular person but she didn't want that. she just wanted my hard earned money for a few minutes of sexual pleasure.

I told her I didn't appreciate what she was doing and all she could do is say I must be gay because all the men jump at the chance to have sex with her.

My friend eventually kicked her out of his apartment because she wouldn't pay any money towards rent and after he did she called the police and told them that my friend was dealing pot.

Of course, my friend got busted then evicted from his apartment and ended up sleeping in the park.

Sorry but I don't like prostitutes and their prostitute mentality.

I don't like accountants, because one time this accountant I knew was a jerk.

Sorry, I don't like accountants.

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legal market price

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WTF? There would be no legal market price. And the ones that would be illegal, would be the ones that did not follow the rules, such as disease testing, etc.

They would be "on the black market" by choice, just as other professions can be on the black market by not abiding by laws and regulations, such as contractors, electricians, truck drivers, etc.

Right now they are ALL on the black market. Legalization would pull 99 percent out of the shadows.

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I don't like accountants, because one time this accountant I knew was a jerk.

Sorry, I don't like accountants.

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Not all accountants have a prostitute mentality.

All prostitutes have a prostitute mentality.

I don't hear about prostitutes giving their "services" away for free to poor, old or ugly guys who can't get laid and who can't afford their "services".

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Just because a law doesn't prevent all targeted behavior doesn't mean it isn't legitimate.

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No it doesn't. But the behavior that does occur, happens in black market. Furthermore, when you criminalize something, you're increasing government and then it creates an underclass of individuals who exist solely because they were determined to be criminals. I get that it's the risk they assume, but I think if the government is going to make this risk, then they better have good reason why those people belong in a similar class as violent criminals.

What makes prostitution criminlization so off, is that the behavior itself is legal, so long as there is no direct monetary transaction. And with Tinder and whatever else exists, many people have an easier time finding a bunch of sex partners than a lot of the people who are probably resorting to picking up prostitutes.

Even more odd, is that in many ways, anybody who has taken a person out on a date, or bought them something desirable, with the goal of having sex, they have done something not much different than illegal prostitution.

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Reality points to the conclusion that people are not basically good and that evil exists and is perpetuated within society all the time. We have thousands upon thousands of laws on the books yet people still break them.

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And I think authoritarian polices, disguised as a public good.

Besides, I've seen episodes of that Bunny Ranch show on HBO, and while I wouldn't frequent, it seemed a lot less "evil" then the pimps (and often much worse), in the criminal underworld.