- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Big misconception among many of you about why we Dems oppose The Wall
Posted on 1/20/19 at 6:52 am to Cold Drink
Posted on 1/20/19 at 6:52 am to Cold Drink
I hope you see that your 3rd and 4th points are contradictory. Either the wall keeps people from crossing or it doesn’t.
0
Posted on 1/20/19 at 8:55 am to Cold Drink
quote:
1) It’s a Dog Whistle
When anybody uses this phrase, I can’t take them seriously. You sound like a teenager quoting CNN to sound smart lol
Posted on 1/20/19 at 9:10 am to Cold Drink
I respect the folks that just yell Screee! more than this long-winded bullshite.
When you say “we”, who do you speak for? I know the majority of the left I have seen scream for open borders. Your leader Nancy said it was immoral.
I have not seen any evidence that would say the left is not for open borders.
When you say “we”, who do you speak for? I know the majority of the left I have seen scream for open borders. Your leader Nancy said it was immoral.
I have not seen any evidence that would say the left is not for open borders.
Posted on 1/20/19 at 11:20 am to Cold Drink
I'm guessing Democrats know he feels obliged to produce on the promises and platitudes he gave to his base during the election.
They may know isolating the Southern boarder is his red herring to simplify the complex national security situation involving the proven higher amount of potentially dangerous Canadian boarder crossers and massive naval ship containers' illegal immigrants from Asian and African countries.
(Only something like Italy's Moses Project can stop the ship container issue.)
If I were a Democrat, the aesthetics of the wall would concern me too; given, the old portions of the wall will remain. Will they match and look good, or just piecemeal? How will it look once it's tagged with teenage graffiti?
We need to look to the Israeli government for guidance, given their deep set alerting live wire fencing with concertina crowned pre-fencing is effective, and can utilise wind turbynes and solar power.
And, have the military build the fencing for heaven's sake!
I can already see the "immoral" sweetheart deals being made on the contracts, knowing certain things.
They may know isolating the Southern boarder is his red herring to simplify the complex national security situation involving the proven higher amount of potentially dangerous Canadian boarder crossers and massive naval ship containers' illegal immigrants from Asian and African countries.
(Only something like Italy's Moses Project can stop the ship container issue.)
If I were a Democrat, the aesthetics of the wall would concern me too; given, the old portions of the wall will remain. Will they match and look good, or just piecemeal? How will it look once it's tagged with teenage graffiti?
We need to look to the Israeli government for guidance, given their deep set alerting live wire fencing with concertina crowned pre-fencing is effective, and can utilise wind turbynes and solar power.
And, have the military build the fencing for heaven's sake!
I can already see the "immoral" sweetheart deals being made on the contracts, knowing certain things.
Posted on 1/20/19 at 11:31 am to Cold Drink
I quit skimming your thoughts at 'Dog Whistle"
Your inference of what is actually happening is not a real problem...it's made up in your head...it's your biased, unintelligent interpretation of the truth.
#stillyourpresident
Your inference of what is actually happening is not a real problem...it's made up in your head...it's your biased, unintelligent interpretation of the truth.
#stillyourpresident
Posted on 1/20/19 at 11:48 am to LafTiger
Im against it because I believe it's pushed for primarily by people who fear a change in demographics.
It's more effective to address illegal immigration by going after employers who hire them or by revising the tax system
It's more effective to address illegal immigration by going after employers who hire them or by revising the tax system
This post was edited on 1/20/19 at 11:49 am
Posted on 1/20/19 at 12:12 pm to ChineseBandit58
quote:He says early on he is a Dem. He speaks at length that the two sides are talking past each other. He then lays out his reasons why we should not build a wall.
ChineseBandit58
Much respect to you sir
Posted on 1/20/19 at 12:17 pm to CelticDog
quote:
I'm for a unified north American union.
Mexico has a LONG way to go before this should ever be considered. No rational person could support this at this point in time.
Posted on 1/20/19 at 12:23 pm to Cold Drink
Nothing you said was anything new that was not understood.
Your arguments and reasons are flowery ways of saying exactly the mocking taglines the trumpkins on here assume your arguments are.
1)the Wall is racist
2) #resist
3) walls don’t work
4) this one is new, namely because you don’t realize almost every community on the border has a wall already.
5) .001% of the budget is too expensive
6) Muh ugliness (btw, wind power is great and not an eyesore)
7) I hate trump
Thanks for playing.
Your arguments and reasons are flowery ways of saying exactly the mocking taglines the trumpkins on here assume your arguments are.
1)the Wall is racist
2) #resist
3) walls don’t work
4) this one is new, namely because you don’t realize almost every community on the border has a wall already.
5) .001% of the budget is too expensive
6) Muh ugliness (btw, wind power is great and not an eyesore)
7) I hate trump
Thanks for playing.
Posted on 1/20/19 at 12:23 pm to bmy
quote:Probably.
It's more effective to address illegal immigration by going after employers who hire them
That should be a component of comprehensive immigration reform. Dems have nixed CIR.
Posted on 1/20/19 at 7:32 pm to roadGator
quote:
Webster's is fine.
Okay, LINK
Please define which "side" is marching us closer to
quote:
governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
... and how exactly this is being done.
Keep in mind that Trump, as the current sitting POTUS, has far more influence than whatshername from Brooklyn.
Posted on 1/20/19 at 7:49 pm to Cold Drink
quote:
1) It’s a Dog Whistle
frick right the hell on off with this bullshite.
Posted on 1/20/19 at 8:01 pm to Cold Drink
The only question that I have for you is why was it just 4-5 yrs ago when your Democratic leaders were saying how important building a wall is? Also u do know that the money will go to far more that a wall? America cannot keep just letting people illegally come into this country! Every country in the world that can , does defend their borders! Why do we want or need people with not one helpful skill , who are leaving their shithole countries in most cases to illegally come into America while proudly flying the flag of the shithole country their escaping from? We don’t need them nor want them! You can make a call to a business in any other country in the world and their not going to say “ if u speak English press 1” if u speak Spanish press 2 and so on. America fricked up win we let fricking liberals start pushing our Republican politicains around and got no push back. It’s time that Conservatives become more aggressive and start hurting some fricking feeling because if it’s not now, when? We have a bunch of GOP pussies in DC who need to go and we put in some strong conservatives of all races to get back into these libs faces. It’s time people , it’s times to not be quiet and not say anything. That’s bullshite! It’s time!
Posted on 1/20/19 at 8:10 pm to Cold Drink
quote:
1) It’s a Dog Whistle (emotional reason). If Trump wanted a comprehensive border security package that incidentally expanded fencing (I.e. The Wall by another name), we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Instead, by repeating that we need A Wall - especially in light of many other comments about Mexico/Mexican Americans/The Border - he’s insulting Mexico/Mexicans and acting like they are some infestation we need to keep out. Again that might not be how he feels (or you feel), but that’s how it comes across to many of us. It’s important that we don’t back down in the face of that language. Not cool to talk about people that way.
Non-sequitur, why does wall = racist dog whistle but not a "comprehensive border security package"?
With respect to the bolded part, you just seem to see racism everywhere. It's the default. Trump has repeatedly said that he's fine with immigrants coming here legally. It's not that Mexicans are crossing the border, its that people are crossing illegally.
quote:
2) It’s a bad precedent (political reason). Dems don’t want to create a precedent where Trump can get his way by threatening a shut down. “If we give him this then what’s it going to be next time?”
You've yet to establish what about "his way" (the wall) is wrong. You sound like you're opposing Trump simply to oppose Trump.
Prior to the shutdown, Trump and Republicans have offered quite a bit to get a wall. It's not like they're trying to railroad Democrats by getting everything they want and giving up nothing.
quote:
3) It’s unnecessary/ineffective (logical reason). I can speak from a lot of personal experience here. I’ve spent a lot of time in Mexico (all over Mexico, but no where more than Juarez) and along the US Border. First, anyone who really wants to get to the US can and will get here with relative ease. You can just drive or fly here like anyone else, and countless people cross over and back every day. The idea that people are riding over on donkeys through the desert is just not an accurate portrayal. And at any rate, having to ride a donkey through the desert is a much tougher barrier than a Wall.
Border Patrol agents disagree, and I'd imagine they have a bit more expertise with respect to this than you do.
Moreover, its only 5.7 billion dollars. Can you name me another time where such a small percentage of our national budget caused such a problem? Created so much debate? No, no you can't. It's not about the money, its about giving Trump a political victory/possibly getting a handle on illegal immigration.
quote:
4) Negative effect on border economies/culture (logical/emotional reasoning). Back in the day - especially before 9/11 - people in border cities would always cross over back and forth. And it was awesome. These border communities have historic economic and cultural ties that have really been severed with the increased border security, and they’ve suffered as a result.
I'm sure the drug cartels agree with you there.
quote:
5) It’s expensive (logical reason). Similar to point #2, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. No one seriously believes $5 billion will get a Wall of any significance across the entire border.
So if he asked for more you'd be ok with it?
Stop bullshiting us. quote:
6) The border is beautiful; a Wall is ugly (emotional/logical reason). This one is really straightforward: I love spending time down by the border. It’s breathtakingly beautiful and I don’t want it ruined by an ugly arse Wall.
What are you doing so close to the border that a 30 foot wall would be an eye sore. Seriously, you'd have to be like within a mile of the border to even notice it on the horizon, and a lot closer for it to become an eyesore.
Sounds like you're just grasping at straws at this point.
quote:
7) Trump wants it really bad (emotional). I’m putting this last - and it’s certainly not my reason - but I’m not going to pretend a large part of the opposition isn’t the plain ole human nature you see among both sides.
There it is. The party of opposition. If Trump wants it really bad then its gotta be bad and so I'm against it.
Thank you for your effort in this, but you've shown nothing. You're being oppositional for opposition's sake at best, and handwaving/excusing illegal immigration at worst.
You've only strengthened my stance. I've got a fairly good bead on what progressives think about this wall.
Posted on 1/20/19 at 8:15 pm to Cold Drink
quote:
Not cool to talk about people that way.
Unless it's Christians right?
GTFO!
Posted on 1/20/19 at 8:16 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
The brighter quintile or so of Trumpkins understood everything you said before you said it. The problem lies in the other four quintilles, which are well-represented here. They are unable to grasp that any issue is anything other than binary.
EDIT: I should have added that they struggle with any analysis that does not fit on a bumper sticker or (at most) a single Tweet.
The DA in chief has spoken!
Posted on 1/20/19 at 8:36 pm to Cold Drink
quote:
It’s expensive
Which is why we need mine fields. Both cheap and effective.
Posted on 1/20/19 at 10:04 pm to Cold Drink
Did they ever teach you to condense your thoughts in school? Get to the point...
While you are spending copious amounts of time talking a bunch of nonsense, I will give you a couple of brief counterpoints that show how much this is false bravado and "sticking it to the Man" for Democrats and not about a substantive difference of opinion.
1) In 2007, Democrats came together with Rs for bipartisan legislation for the Fence Act to build more fence and improve border security. Obama, Pelosi and Clinton supported the legislation.
2) In 2014, Clinton said she was proud of her vote on the fence act and would do it again.
Why have all of those leaders of liberals totally gone crazy on border security? Cause their base wants them to go scorched Earth on Trump.
While you are spending copious amounts of time talking a bunch of nonsense, I will give you a couple of brief counterpoints that show how much this is false bravado and "sticking it to the Man" for Democrats and not about a substantive difference of opinion.
1) In 2007, Democrats came together with Rs for bipartisan legislation for the Fence Act to build more fence and improve border security. Obama, Pelosi and Clinton supported the legislation.
2) In 2014, Clinton said she was proud of her vote on the fence act and would do it again.
Why have all of those leaders of liberals totally gone crazy on border security? Cause their base wants them to go scorched Earth on Trump.
This post was edited on 1/20/19 at 10:05 pm
Posted on 1/21/19 at 7:30 am to Cold Drink
quote:
This is a probably I’ll-fated attempt at a reasonable exchange of opinions on here that will probably go down in flames, but what the hell I’ll give it a shot. I actually am not here to discuss the merits or lack thereof about The Wall. Instead I’m hoping to address what’s been bothering me about the discussion: the apparent lack of understanding among many in the conservative crowd as to why we Democrats oppose The Wall. Note that I’m not saying my side is correct; I’m saying that we are having two different conversations. Nor am I saying that we (Dems) don’t have our blind spots/misunderstandings as well, and maybe this thread could be a good spot for some on the conservative side to point those out. Maybe a better understanding of where The Other Side is coming from can be helpful to the discussion and stop everyone from thinking everyone else is stupid all the time. But anyway, here goes. I notice that the general sentiment among the conservative crowd (here and IRL) is that we Dems oppose The Wall because “we want open borders” or we want a bunch of people coming in or something along those lines. I can tell you that this is not why we oppose it. Not even close. Again, the Democratic opposition to the wall has nothing to do with immigration, legal or illegal. And this is what I mean by having two different conversations. Republican support for The Wall is very much grounded in immigration/security reasons and I think it’s natural to assume our opposition would be based on those same concerns. But it’s not. If this was our main concern then we’d make a deal for a $5 billion wall immediately and probably even get some cool concessions out of it. The Wall won’t really have much of an effect on this and it would be the easiest deal we’d ever make: we’d be getting something for essentially nothing. But instead we have completely different reason(s) we oppose The Wall. Again I’m not trying to convince you that these are valid. You can dismiss them as wrong or stupid but at least by doing that you will be addressing the actual reasoning among Team Blue. Here they are: 1) It’s a Dog Whistle (emotional reason). If Trump wanted a comprehensive border security package that incidentally expanded fencing (I.e. The Wall by another name), we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Instead, by repeating that we need A Wall - especially in light of many other comments about Mexico/Mexican Americans/The Border - he’s insulting Mexico/Mexicans and acting like they are some infestation we need to keep out. Again that might not be how he feels (or you feel), but that’s how it comes across to many of us. It’s important that we don’t back down in the face of that language. Not cool to talk about people that way. 2) It’s a bad precedent (political reason). Dems don’t want to create a precedent where Trump can get his way by threatening a shut down. “If we give him this then what’s it going to be next time?” 3) It’s unnecessary/ineffective (logical reason). I can speak from a lot of personal experience here. I’ve spent a lot of time in Mexico (all over Mexico, but no where more than Juarez) and along the US Border. First, anyone who really wants to get to the US can and will get here with relative ease. You can just drive or fly here like anyone else, and countless people cross over and back every day. The idea that people are riding over on donkeys through the desert is just not an accurate portrayal. And at any rate, having to ride a donkey through the desert is a much tougher barrier than a Wall. Now I’m not saying a Wall isn’t effective, but it already exists in all the appropriate (read: high traffic) areas. The parts with no Wall are generally those areas that are remote and hard to get to. Most people wanting to cross over will just cross through Juarez/El Paso or Matamoros/Brownsville. Or get on a plane. Admittedly, yes - expanding The Wall even through these areas will have some effect on people crossing over, but in our view the effort to result ratio is not a very favorable one. Also, I imagine we generally don’t think it’s as big a deal if people come over as y’all do. These are obviously areas where reasonable minds can disagree. 4) Negative effect on border economies/culture (logical/emotional reasoning). Back in the day - especially before 9/11 - people in border cities would always cross over back and forth. And it was awesome. These border communities have historic economic and cultural ties that have really been severed with the increased border security, and they’ve suffered as a result. 5) It’s expensive (logical reason). Similar to point #2, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. No one seriously believes $5 billion will get a Wall of any significance across the entire border. 6) The border is beautiful; a Wall is ugly (emotional/logical reason). This one is really straightforward: I love spending time down by the border. It’s breathtakingly beautiful and I don’t want it ruined by an ugly arse Wall. 7) Trump wants it really bad (emotional). I’m putting this last - and it’s certainly not my reason - but I’m not going to pretend a large part of the opposition isn’t the plain ole human nature you see among both sides. So there you have it. I think #1 is about 60% of the opposition with everything following decsreasing in importance (right or wrong). I’m happy to discuss any of these with you and especially hear from yall about things we may be getting wrong about the Republican perspective. But I do hope this sheds some light on the Democratic perspective so the conversation can be more than just “Democrats want to let all the Mexicans in,” because I assure you that’s not the case. I’ll leave with one final thought that one of my mentors always told me: “you don’t understand an issue if you can’t convingly argue why you’re wrong.” I hope I’ve helped y’all do just that
That my friends is an impressive wall of BS.
Page 14 of 14
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News