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re: Anyone who is for increased minimum wage tell me why we shouldn't jump straight to $100/hr
Posted on 1/18/21 at 7:38 pm to BiteMe2020
Posted on 1/18/21 at 7:38 pm to BiteMe2020
quote:
Yours is an emotional argument, ignorant of how economics works.
Raise minimum wage to some "living wage". Fine. Get ready for a side of fries to cost $30 at McDonalds, then you're back at people not making a living wage again, lol.
That's not true though. Fast food is an item elastic demand so the demand would fall with an increased price.
You may pay 50 cents more for your meal at mcdonalds, but I can guarantee that the price of fast food is not going to increase by a significant amount due to minimum wage going up. Many countries have unions that have negotiated a higher 'minimum wage' and their prices don't go up significantly. Minimum wage in San Fran is 15 and fries don't cost 30 lol
The reason that the US needs the minimum wage is that we have no real union presence in the U.S. Companies actively discourage against unions. We either need unions or a minimum wage.
3
Posted on 1/18/21 at 7:38 pm to Microtiger
quote:
But it ought to be closer than it is. There's a such thing as a place between $7 and $100,
It is the minimum wage. Not the wage you’re capable of raising a family and owning a house on. It is the absolute bare minimum.
The bare minimum.
It’s supposed to be the absolute minimum. Not the minimum required for all of life’s comforts.
Further, most places don’t even pay minimum wage.
Walmart
Fast food
Home Depot
Etc...
All pay their employees more than minimum wage already.
Who exactly do you think raising the minimum wage helps?
Who right now is making only minimum wage and through no other fault of their own not able to make ends meet?
Posted on 1/18/21 at 7:41 pm to Skyler97
quote:
Many countries have unions that have negotiated a higher 'minimum wage' and
A union negotiating within a closed system for higher pay is vastly different from artificial pay inflation from the government.
In a union vs employer system the employer knows how much room they have to negotiate without recking their entire business model. Further, each company and industry can negotiate their own wages.
A sweeping national minimum wage increase with no other considerations helps no one.
quote:
We either need unions or a minimum wage.
Why? Where in America are people only able to make minimum wage and nothing more?
Posted on 1/18/21 at 7:43 pm to Nguyener
I don't disagree with what you said, but it's also true that the minimum wage as it is simply doesn't have the proportional power that it did even in what most people consider the golden age of America. Something like $12 or $10 is really not a ridiculous ask. I mean it inevitably *should* go up over time, even though there's going to be friction every single time people try to do it. Look how long that latest straight line is in the orange line. It can't stay the same forever as the rest of the economy inflates around it. The real disagreement is how much it should lag behind.
Edit: in case it's not clear, even though I vote Dem I'm really not sold on the $15 price point. I wish we were discussing the more interesting thing, which is where it should be *between* the current level and $15, not $100.
Also, I'm not familiar with how much Obama was or wasn't tied into that last increase in ~2009. If he was, and if we'd gotten say McCain or Romney the whole time, would we still have the same rate as the 90s? Five dollars? Can anyone defend that in the current economic climate? That's what, $11,000 a year? Doubleedit: Turns out it was passed under Bush then raised a bit over a couple years, actually! Though it was started and carried with heavy Dem support.
It has to go up, eventually.
This post was edited on 1/18/21 at 7:51 pm
Posted on 1/18/21 at 7:44 pm to Nguyener
quote:Irish.
Why? Where in America are people only able to make minimum wage and nothing more?
The answer is simple...there are people in this country that have no aspiration greater than coffee batista. They don't understand why they must slave away and never make ends meet while paying off that wacky time they went to college and got a BS in sociology and an MS in race studies of Madagascar ground hogs
Posted on 1/18/21 at 7:46 pm to Skyler97
quote:
That's not true though. Fast food is an item elastic demand so the demand would fall with an increased price.
Someone never took a business or economics class.
Avg. fast food worker wage now is above minimum wage, at around $9/hr. I question the 50 cent cost with an increase in labor wages of 55%.
Prices increase, demand falls, and the owners and managers are faced with choices... cut quality, or cut service.
It's not going to have the effect you think it will.
Because money is a fiction, really, what you're really saying when you say people should have the right to a living wage is that people should have the right to luxuries they don't have in undeveloped countries. And that's simply not workable, economically.
Posted on 1/18/21 at 8:03 pm to Microtiger
quote:
Something like $12 or $10 is really not a ridiculous ask.
Do you not have a problem with this immediately devaluing every single person who currently makes $12 or $10?
Every business currently paying $3-$5 over minimum wage is suddenly just paying minimum wage. And plenty of companies who keep minimum wage workers employed fire them all because they’re no longer affordable.
Here’s a good example for you:
The current minimum wage is 7.25. So here’s an example to help you understand:
I own a local grocery store.
I have 1 parking lot attendant- $8 per hour
3 cashiers - $10 per hour
1 customer service cashier - $12 per hour
1 floor manager- $15 per hour
A total of $65 per hour operating cost.
All of my employees are happy currently, I pay more than minimum wage to everyone, I’m generous with raises for those who stay a few years, and I have competitive pricing to the big stores and carry some local brands.
The government suddenly raised the minimum wage to $15.
Now suddenly I’m required to pay every single employee I have the managers rate. I can’t afford that, so here’s what I have to do just to keep my business a float:
Parking lot attendant: fired
1 cashier: fired
2 cashier: $15 per hour
1: customer service cashier: $15 an hour
1: Floor manager: $20 per hour
While that looks like raises on paper you have to view it in reality:
I fired two employees and the employees I kept actually got a pay decrease relative to minimum wage instead of the great money they were making and that hurts in the long run as the economy inflates to meet the difference.
In your perfect world I would fire no one and this would happen after the increase, considering relative value to minimum wage:
have 1 parking lot attendant- $16 per hour
3 cashiers - $20 per hour
1 customer service cashier - $25per hour
1 floor manager- $32 per hour
Now my operating costs went from $65 per hour to $133 per hour due to government imposed regulations and I’m somehow just supposed to eat a double in my operating costs? Most of not all small businesses are not operating on margins anywhere near that. But the big box stores can float it out.
So I either raise my prices and alienate my customers and eventually close due to the inability to compete with Walmart.
Or I fire 2 employees and effectively give everyone else a pay decrease.
Or I just close my store and find a new job somewhere. Probably as a manger at Walmart.
Or what usually happens and is terrible for communities is I fire all of my skilled labor and managers and just do those jobs myself. Now there is no room for raises or growth and I run a business full of minimum wage unskilled labor with no opportunity for improvement.
Posted on 1/18/21 at 8:05 pm to Skyler97
quote:
You may pay 50 cents more for your meal at mcdonalds, but I can guarantee that the price of fast food is not going to increase by a significant amount due to minimum wage going up.
Yeah not sure where the $0.50 idea comes from.... already a multi dollar difference for a meal state to state.
You think those who pay $15 vs $8 just make less profit with no or minimal price increases? Really?
Posted on 1/18/21 at 8:06 pm to Microtiger
quote:
It has to go up, eventually.
Why? For what reason? It is the absolute bare minimum.
Why does the bare minimum have to go up?
What do you think the purpose of minimum wage is?
Can you show me where in America you have people only able to make minimum wage and companies that refuse to pay anyone over minimum wage?
I’ll ask you again, who does raising the minimum wage help? And what do you consider the standards for minimum wage and why it must be raised?
Posted on 1/18/21 at 8:08 pm to Nguyener
Your whole argument there revolves around a minimum wage increase "inflating the whole economy", for which there's not great support. Minimum wage catches up to the economy, not the other way around.
I mean it's great that you own a grocery store and are more closely tied to this stuff in the direct numbers It's understandable for you to rationalize it that way with direct hypotheticals. But somehow people in your shoes have managed every other time it's gone up in history.
I mean it's great that you own a grocery store and are more closely tied to this stuff in the direct numbers It's understandable for you to rationalize it that way with direct hypotheticals. But somehow people in your shoes have managed every other time it's gone up in history.
Posted on 1/18/21 at 8:09 pm to Microtiger
quote:
Can anyone defend that in the current economic climate? That's what, $11,000 a year?
Have you ever owned a business? Managed payroll? Taken an economics class?
Do you have an extra 10,000 per household member sitting around in your budget? Do you have any idea what margins businesses operate on? Do you think every business regardless of industry or position can absorb 11,000 per employee coupled with every employee who makes more than minimum wage already angry that they now only make minimum wage?
Posted on 1/18/21 at 8:11 pm to Pintail
quote:
We need to be more inclusive. Everyone should be able to afford $500k homes.
It’s racist if not everyone can always live in the neighborhood they want. Thank god for Section 8 which fixes that inequity.
Posted on 1/18/21 at 8:13 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
Dems: everyone who works full time should get a living wage. 31 K assuming they work 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year.
LOL!
Dems: Job pay should be guaranteed based on the hours worked per week, not the job itself or merit.
So you're saying that minimum wage should only be offered to fulltime employees and under the assumption that they do not get overtime?
Why not just give them a 31.2k a year salary with strict attendance rules?
There's no logic at all in this. The unemployment rate alone would sky rocket, much less the loss of benefits and hours.
quote:
everyone who works full time should get a living wage.
living wage or live alone wage?
Affording to live alone and own property etc is not a right, it's a privilege. You can live on far, FAR less than 31k a year if you're humble and disciplined.
This post was edited on 1/18/21 at 8:15 pm
Posted on 1/18/21 at 8:14 pm to Microtiger
quote:
Your whole argument there revolves around a minimum wage increase "inflating the whole economy",
No. It doesn’t. Did you even read it?
Assuming nothing inflates I still have to fire 3 people simply based on operating costs. And three of the people I kept are now making minimum wage instead of almost double that. You’re ok with that?
quote:
But somehow people in your shoes have managed every other time it's gone up in history.
Yeah usually by small businesses firing employees and closing and soulless national conglomerates moving in.
Did you read this part:
either raise my prices and alienate my customers and eventually close due to the inability to compete with Walmart.
Or I fire 2 employees and effectively give everyone else a pay decrease.
Or I just close my store and find a new job somewhere. Probably as a manger at Walmart.
Or what usually happens and is terrible for communities is I fire all of my skilled labor and managers and just do those jobs myself. Now there is no room for raises or growth and I run a business full of minimum wage unskilled labor with no opportunity for improvement.
quote:
mean it's great that you own a grocery store and are more closely tied to this stuff in the direct numbers
I don’t own a grocery store. I just have a basic fundamental understanding of economics. And if you’re going to argue that the entire country should have government enforced wage increases you should understand the effects of that.
This post was edited on 1/18/21 at 8:17 pm
Posted on 1/18/21 at 8:16 pm to Nguyener
quote:
Or I just close my store and find a new job somewhere. Probably as a manger at Walmart.
You won't have anyone to manage. Will be all kiosks and robots.
Posted on 1/18/21 at 8:28 pm to Microtiger
Upvoting your own posts and downvoting everyone else’s is hilarious
Posted on 1/18/21 at 9:04 pm to Pintail
you guys are really melting about this 
15hr MW hike was probably always a "drop for bargaining" addition and will be dropped to get the rest of the package through
15hr MW hike was probably always a "drop for bargaining" addition and will be dropped to get the rest of the package through
Posted on 1/19/21 at 12:00 am to Nguyener
quote:
Upvoting your own posts and downvoting everyone else’s is hilarious
Bruh I wasn't even in the thread, but okay. As a rule it's healthier to ignore the upvotes/downvotes, they have actively made these forums worse ever since they were introduced. Responding in a defensive way like this is a bad look.
You might be getting downvotes because you didn't read my post carefully. You spent a whole reply against me talking about $11,000, assuming I was defending that as a reasonable amount for you, a businessperson, to absorb. No. I was saying that's how much you'd make in a year at minimum wage if minimum wage was $5/hour. I was using it as an example of how the minimum wage HAS to go up at least a little bit every now and then. If it had stayed the same since the 90s, minimum wage would be $11,000 a year, which is obviously bogus.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 3:10 am to Microtiger
quote:
It has to go up, eventually.
This is some article of faith that I remain in awe of.
Why? Why do we need it at all?
If we had NO minimum wage, would folks be working out there for nothing? 5 cents an hour? 10 cents an hour?
Rubbish. This minimum wage screws people, particularly young and unskilled folks, out of starting level/trainee type jobs.
As far as fast food - all the $15/hr bullshite will do is automate (read, "eliminate") the vast majority of those jobs faster than they would have been without such nonsense. It robs young folks of the ability to get a job, earn some money and develop a work ethic.
This post was edited on 1/19/21 at 3:11 am
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