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re: Any takers for a discussion about “Marxian economics”?
Posted on 11/4/26 at 4:23 pm to NC_Tigah
Posted on 11/4/26 at 4:23 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:Moralizing outcomes.
"responsible people" in this context are people who recognize an obligation and reliably fulfill it.
quote:Yeah, I guess it is. It builds on other ideas from theorists like Freire and Henry Grioux.
Isn't that a Saltman premise?
quote:Isn't it? Maybe not the sex-segregated part, but public schools offer accelerated and advanced classes for students who benefit from taking them.
Suppose I told you that is a product of hierarchical classrooms, often sex segregated. IOW those schools assign classrooms by intellectual capacity. Where textbooks and curriculum are similar, the upper levels move through them more quickly, and then on to other projects. Lower levels move more slowly, with emphasis on repetition. Could that be employed in public school?
Posted on 11/4/26 at 4:26 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:It's weird that we don't try to find a better tool for measuring education. We just keep forcing standardized tests.
This is absolutely true, but the primary issue is that there isn't a standardized way of partitioning talent efficiently in large states such that standardized tests can serve as a sieve which directs talents to areas that are both potentially economically beneficial as well as beneficial for society.
Posted on 11/4/26 at 4:26 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
I haven't. In fact, in Louisiana, the voucher system is rife with abuse and decreased outcomes for students.
LA doesn't have a voucher system like the other school choice states
It pretty much has open enrollment in all parishes and some they don't care if you go to another public school outside the parish
And it has a growing number of charter schools
Posted on 11/4/26 at 4:31 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
I'm having a discussion.
Yet still haven’t responded to countless logical retorts to your beliefs
Posted on 11/4/26 at 4:33 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:What kind of curriculum would prepare a student to answer this question correctly? That's where "teaching to the test" happens.
Jan has two pets:
A cat named Spot and a rabbit named Ears.
At night, Jan leaves a bowl of food for each pet, but Ears the rabbit usually saves his until the morning. One night Spot's food bowl was empty, but Ear's bowl was still full.
Why do you think Spot's food bowl was empty, but Ear's bowl was still full?
• A) Ears forgot to eat
• B) Spot ate her food because she was hungry
• C) Spot doesn’t like eating at night
• D) Jan didn’t give enough food to Ears
Posted on 11/4/26 at 4:34 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
It's weird that we don't try to find a better tool for measuring education. We just keep forcing standardized tests.
It's not really 'weird' at all. It's just the simplest way of partitioning talent. It's the same as with any talent partitioning system, as you just choose arbitrary cut-offs, which doesn't really capture what individuals are capable of. It can both be the case that standardized tests will miss subsections of any population because they cannot test everything, as their purpose is more about partitioning rather than testing, from a broad societal view. Raj Chetty has a paper about inventors and background that is very interesting. You should read it.
Posted on 11/4/26 at 4:35 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
It's weird that we don't try to find a better tool for measuring education. We just keep forcing standardized tests.
It's weird that standardized testing worked for 100+ years (Horace Mann - The OG) ... where the educated populace built:
- US Industrial/Manufacturing Revolution (too many inventions to count)
- Nuclear power
- Countless breakthroughs in medicine
- Put a man on the moon
But somehow standardized testing is not a good measure for education ...
It's almost like history tells a different story from the version collectivists want to tell ...
Posted on 11/4/26 at 4:39 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:Modern education doesn't value physical movement at all. In fact, opportunities for students to move their bodies have gotten fewer and fewer as the importance of standardized test scores has increased. It's counteractive to normal child development in some profound ways.
One thing I think standardized tests 'under-test' that is useful from an economic sense is fine motor skills. A massive amount of brain neural activity is dedicated to the intersection motor coordination and timing. The cerebellum, if I recall, has around 70 billion of the brain's 90 billion neurons, and it controls balance, coordination of movements and muscle tone maintenance, and the cerebrocerebellum has the nonmotor functions of cognition, language, learning and emotions. In addition, the cortical homunculus, the hands are over-represented, and the density of distinct receptors in the fingers suggest their importance in discerning touch, texture, vibration, and stretch. The problem with this notion is that acts like reading are coordinated by I believe the vestibulocerebellum, which calibrates motor neuron commands from the brainstem nuclei of CN III, IV, and VI to coordinate eye movement.
Separating fine motor skills from the motor skills that make cognition, language, and learning possible is very sensitive, although there is a neuroanatomical way of separating them. What I mean to suggest is that the biggest area where standardized tests fail students is in a subset of boys in particular where fine motor movement and coordination are not thought of as a type of intelligence even though they should absolutely be regarded as such. That's one area where the standardized approach to large populations is particularly inefficient, in my view. Your thoughts?
Posted on 11/4/26 at 4:48 pm to AmishSamurai
quote:
- US Industrial/Manufacturing Revolution (too many inventions to count)
- Nuclear power
- Countless breakthroughs in medicine
- Put a man on the moon
This isn't exactly accurate, in terms of the order of events. Describing that standardized testing worked for the US Industrial/Manufacturing Revolution is just an odd historical anachronism, especially the first wave of it, which took place between the 1790's and the 1860's. The second wave, between 1870s and up until WWI, also didn't really rely on standardized tests in any way. We didn't have standardized tests in the same way then, and it's just a lot more complicated than you are suggesting. For example, there was lots of foundational work in physics done at Gottigen, and there in the 1920s, you had Max Born, Pascual Jordan, Paul Dirac, Maria Goppert, James Franck, David Hilbert, Werner Heisenberg, John von Neumann and Robert Oppenheimer, among many others in Europe at the time. The test that they would be familiar with, at least those of them that were from Germany, would have been the Abitur, and people like Oppenheimer didn't really encounter them. I could go on, but I'm likely talking to someone who doesn't care.
quote:
It's almost like history tells a different story from the version collectivists want to tell ...
Buddy, given your treatment of the material in your post, I don't think you have a very strong grasp of that history.
Posted on 11/4/26 at 4:53 pm to 4cubbies
Well I am not talking about 'movement,' I'm more referring to what the human brain reserves quite a lot of activity for, which is the coordination of movement. It's also true that movement is a much more highly conserved feature of mammals than something like 'intelligence' and thus harder to separate meaningfully with a battery of tests that are useful and predictive. And given the American emphasis on sports, we do value that quite a bit.
It's just that kinesthetic intelligence is underrated through standardization efforts, or most visibly so.
It's just that kinesthetic intelligence is underrated through standardization efforts, or most visibly so.
Posted on 11/4/26 at 4:58 pm to beerJeep
quote:
Yet still haven’t responded to countless logical retorts to your beliefs
Yep. This shite isn't even a new approach. Claim to want to discuss. Never respond to any retorts that give your general point of view a problem. Frame all of your arguments in the form of questions so that you can pretend you're not arguing. And basically just see how long you can get people to chase you in circles.
Posted on 11/4/26 at 4:59 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
weird that we don't try to find a better tool for measuring education. We just keep forcing standardized tests.
Are you under the impression that no one has tried to come up with a better way? You seem to be assuming a fact not in evidence
Posted on 11/4/26 at 5:09 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:Punching above your weight here
The problem with this notion is that acts like reading are coordinated by I believe the vestibulocerebellum, which calibrates motor neuron commands from the brainstem nuclei of CN III, IV, and VI to coordinate eye movement.
quote:As someone who's had a subtle fine motor intentional tremor all my life,
the biggest area where standardized tests fail students is in a subset of boys in particular where fine motor movement and coordination are not thought of as a type of intelligence even though they should absolutely be regarded as such
I'd say screw you for dwelling on my 'stupidity' damn it !!
You're trying to undercut my self-confidence, aren't you?
Seriously though, it was being forced to compensate for the tremor (e.g., w/ hypothenar stabilizing so it was literally completely unnoticeable) that led to real procedural successes in both accuracy and efficiency. Sometimes the channeled effort in pushing through a 'barrier' leads to even higher accomplishment on the other side. JFK supposedly worked through a similar issue with dyslexia, eventually becoming a >1000wpm speed reader.
This post was edited on 11/5/26 at 4:20 am
Posted on 11/4/26 at 5:15 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Seriously though, it was being forced to compensate for my fine tremor (e.g., w/ hypothenar stabilizing) that led to real procedural successes in both accuracy and efficiency. JFK worked through a similar issue with dyslexia.
That's a really good point. There are a few artists, I think Matisse among them, that purposefully worked around constraints to help them creatively. I think there is something to say about that with early childhood learning as well.
Posted on 11/4/26 at 5:22 pm to 4cubbies
quote:Is it really weird?
It's weird that we don't try to find a better tool for measuring education
Randi Weingarten, et al are diametrically opposed!
Posted on 11/4/26 at 5:23 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
but I'm likely talking to someone who doesn't care.
Buddy, given your treatment of the material in your post, I don't think you have a very strong grasp of that history.
Not quite.
The examples were simple points for the OP ... having a longer discussion about what drove US exceptionalism from 1850 - 1980 is a lot deeper than standardized testing analysis ... absolutely.
But the idea that we haven't dumbed down the tests, adjusted the tests for various -isms and phobias ... and any standardized tests don't test cognitive ability is an exercise in futility when arguing with someone who doesn't have a baseline syllogistic background (not you, OP) ... outside of straw men, appeals to authority, yada, yada, yada ...
Your response to the OP idea that we should have intelligent tests based on movement ...
quote:
Well I am not talking about 'movement,' I'm more referring to what the human brain reserves quite a lot of activity for, which is the coordination of movement.
Your honor ... the defense rests.
This post was edited on 11/4/26 at 5:26 pm
Posted on 11/4/26 at 6:10 pm to AmishSamurai
quote:
But the idea that we haven't dumbed down the tests, adjusted the tests for various -isms and phobias ... and any standardized tests don't test cognitive ability is an exercise in futility when arguing with someone who doesn't have a baseline syllogistic background (not you, OP) ... outside of straw men, appeals to authority, yada, yada, yada ...
Bud, we didn't have any system of tests that were used 100+ years, so I'm glad you dropped that notion so quickly. We had 'tests' the character of which was more in the classical tradition, and for which we don't really have a direct reference save for a few fields. When Oppenheimer and several others returned from Europe in the late 20's and early 30's and built the Physics departments which are foundational for later American success in the physical sciences, it certainly wasn't built on standardized tests. There's a better argument to be made on what education we should value if we are referencing those periods, and notably, it isn't the one you seem to be advocating. Again, I don't think you care about the difference.
quote:
Your honor ... the defense rests.
I'm sure that's what you think.
Posted on 11/4/26 at 6:41 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:yes! If capitalism fosters innovation, and we want to evaluate education using capitalist metrics, I think it’s strange that we aren’t applying innovative elements of “the market” to education and are essentially strangling innovation (and advancement and achievement imo) through our relentless commitment to standardization (via curriculum and assessments).
Is it really weird?
Posted on 11/4/26 at 6:45 pm to 4cubbies
Just fyi, I scroll past posts by people who have repeatedly demonstrated they are only here to troll. I don’t even read them at all. I’m beyond sick of immature men thinking they are entitled to my attention. There’s no other way to say it than frick off.
Posted on 11/4/26 at 6:45 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Any takers for a discussion about “Marxian economics”?
Did that article mention anything about Nixon taking us completely off the gold standard and how the Cantillon Effect ramped up because of it?
Legit asking, cubbies.
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