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Message
re: Ahmaud Arbery Timbaliers and Hammer
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:41 am to davyjones
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:41 am to davyjones
quote:
Think of a situation wherein a perp snatches a lady's purse around the corner, you don't witness it yourself, but it's reasonable to believe a purse snatching occurred when you observe the perp running away with a purse in hand, and the lady left screaming that she'd been robbed.
It’s unclear if this would qualify for a citizens arrest. Case law in Georgia: store employees couldn’t effect a citizens arrest based on the testimony of a person robbed in their store without having witnessed it.
quote:
In Winn Dixie Stores Inc. v. Nichols, 205 Ga. App. 308, 422 S.E. 2d 209 (1992), a Winn Dixie customer complained to management that another customer stole her wallet. The court held that the limited rights of merchants to detain or arrest a person reasonably believed to have committed a shoplifting offense do not authorize a merchant to detain or arrest individuals accused by store patrons of committing crimes against other patrons. To make the arrest, an employee would have had to actually see the criminal act committed. Therefore, it was ruled that management had no authority to arrest the alleged criminal.The court suggested that the only person who could have made the citizen's arrest was the robbed customer herself.
LINK
This post was edited on 5/10/20 at 11:43 am
3
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:42 am to GeorgePaton
I don't know how you're seeing all that to any factually certain degree....what transpired at the dead center front of the truck appears quite obstructed to me. The rear window and windshield of the truck obscure a clear shot of what occurred up front, from the camera angle we've seen anyway.
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:45 am to the808bass
I agree and had the father not been a former cop, it’s unlikely it escalates to the level it did.
We still shouldn’t dismiss the actions of the deceased to frame a narrative.
We still shouldn’t dismiss the actions of the deceased to frame a narrative.
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:45 am to GeorgePaton
quote:
But you do see Arbery charge at Travis as he stand in front of the truck. And the force of that charge drives Travis back.
Which is likely a legal response to two people following you and trying to block your path.
This all comes down to the McMichaels witnessing Ahmad committing a felony. Outside of that them following and confronting him will be seen as being the aggressor and justify Ahmads response.
This post was edited on 5/10/20 at 11:50 am
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:45 am to the808bass
Well then we're on the same page ultimately....in this case the intervening time and secondhand knowledge of "maybe" trespassing just isn't even gonna come close to legit citizens arrest. Which obviously the current prosecutor believes as well.
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:46 am to GeorgePaton
And perhaps a retaliatory execution of an elderly white couple in Delaware... nothing official on the victims but the deeper web says they were white and his social media ramblings could be pointing that way.
Link ... the criminal now dead
Link ... the criminal now dead
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:48 am to the808bass
quote:
To make the arrest, an employee would have had to actually see the criminal act committed. Therefore, it was ruled that management had no authority to arrest the alleged criminal.The court suggested that the only person who could have made the citizen's arrest was the robbed customer herself.
Yep, been saying this all along. They had to have witnessed it themselves. They better hope they were the ones who called 911. If a neighbor did, then told them, that's not going to cut it.
And even if they did see him at the house under construction they'd still probably need more to act on.
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:50 am to davyjones
quote:
The rear window and windshield of the truck obscure a clear shot of what occurred up front,
Absolutely, but the claim was made that Travis impeded Arbery's attempt to get around the truck. But again there is no video confirmation that Travis blocked, impeded, prevented, or obstructed Arbery's access to free passage around that pickup. What we do see is the initiation of a violent charge at Travis McMichael. There is NO discharge of that weapon before, during that charge by Arbery. The discharge occurs during the scuffle between the two men and after Arbery grabs the barrel on that weapon with his hand and strikes Travis at least twice.
This post was edited on 5/10/20 at 11:58 am
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:50 am to the808bass
quote:
It’s unclear if this would qualify for a citizens arrest. Case law in Georgia: store employees couldn’t effect a citizens arrest based on the testimony of a person robbed in their store without having witnessed it.
"Georgia law allows for a citizen’s arrest in a felony crime committed in one’s presence, said Arora, who is currently a criminal defense attorney in Atlanta. But a citizen can only use reasonable force to detain a person and deadly force cannot be used unless it’s to prevent a forcible felony or for self-defense.
Since the McMichaels initiated the confrontation with the weapons it will be difficult for them to claim self-defense and what appears on the security video doesn’t justify their actions, he said. The footage also demonstrates that police were not far from the neighborhood when the incident occurred, he said."
LINK
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:51 am to davyjones
quote:
It stands to reason that, given the rather straightforward and unequivocal language used in the first part of the law ("committed in his presence"), that the subsequent part ("or within his immediate knowledge") likely doesn't deviate much from the first part, in other words it isn't going to take a huge leap down from "in his presence". Think of a situation wherein a perp snatches a lady's purse around the corner, you don't witness it yourself, but it's reasonable to believe a purse snatching occurred when you observe the perp running away with a purse in hand, and the lady left screaming that she'd been robbed. You didn't personally observe the crime, but based on the surrounding circumstances it was fully reasonable to believe a probable felony crime occurred "within your immediate knowledge," thus citizens arrest likely justified. I.e. a "bam bam bam" string of events, as opposed to intervening time wherein you had to discuss it with the lady first AND THEN decide that you should pursue the purse snatcher.
100%, great analogy btw
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:51 am to davyjones
Also "trespassing" isn't a felony. Neither is stealing a hammer. I think Georgia law says it has to be over 500 bucks.
What could he steal from a construction site that would add up to 500, or at least close to it, that he could fit on himself while jogging?
What could he steal from a construction site that would add up to 500, or at least close to it, that he could fit on himself while jogging?
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:53 am to Azkiger
quote:
This all comes down to the McMichaels witnessing Ahmad committing a felony. Outside of that them following and confronting him will be seen as being the aggressor and justify Ahmads response.
100%
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:53 am to davyjones
quote:
Well then we're on the same page ultimately....in this case the intervening time and secondhand knowledge of "maybe" trespassing just isn't even gonna come close to legit citizens arrest. Which obviously the current prosecutor believes as well.
100%
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:55 am to GeorgePaton
quote:
What we do see is the initiation of a violent charge at Travis McMichael.
We don't see that, though. We see Ahmaud pushing Travis, yes, but we don't see who initiated physical contact.
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:56 am to Azkiger
Still not a good idea to grab the barrel of a gun pointed in your direction and try to pull it away from the person holding it's trigger.
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:56 am to GeauxLSUGeaux
quote:
. It’s a shame that this tragedy had to happen.
In no universe is what happened a tragedy
Even if you think these guys need to be arrested and jailed it's not a tragedy
The tragedy is when someone is randomly killed for no reason
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:57 am to 257WBY
quote:
The Black Panthers seemed to be ok when they stand in the street with an AR. Hmm.
Well. They are legal there. If they had gone to McMichaels house last week to make a “citizens arrest” based on the video, they could have shot him dead by your logic if he resisted.
If they were right in shooting Arbery based on the citizens arrest theory, then the Black Panthers would be clearly within their rights to chase McMichael down with guns when he left his house.
You really think that’s the law, Learned Hand?
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:57 am to JudgeHolden
Another question I have, whether it matters or not, based on the video, but I hear he had a criminal record and a psychological history. Anyone know if that is true?
This post was edited on 5/10/20 at 11:58 am
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:57 am to Azkiger
quote:
Outside of that them following and confronting him will be seen as being the aggressor and justify Ahmads response.
"But a citizen can only use reasonable force to detain a person and deadly force cannot be used unless it’s to prevent a forcible felony or for self-defense."
He was on foot; they were in a truck. All they had to do was follow him until police caught up. That would have been reasonable. He wasn't going to outrun them.
Posted on 5/10/20 at 11:57 am to ImaObserver
How are we so sure that at the point of initial contact AA immediately sought to grab the barrel of the gun?
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