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re: Why did France and Britian declare war on Germany and not the Soviet Union in WW2
Posted on 5/3/22 at 12:18 pm to Dire Wolf
Posted on 5/3/22 at 12:18 pm to Dire Wolf
The USA was never going to lose WW2, with or without Russia. It would have taken longer, but American industrial might in the 1940s dwarfed Germany and Japan. A lot of the industrial output that went to the USSR ( and there was a great deal) would have stayed home and put into our war effort. America was producing equipment and weapons at a scale Hitler and the Nazis could not even comprehend.
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Posted on 5/3/22 at 12:20 pm to beerJeep
quote:so how does Germany not collapse under its own weight in this scenario? Considering our navy was the greatest in the world by a pretty wide margin and the no.2 navy was our ally we could completely surround every German port and blockade them in, so again as I said before, unless they conquer Russia Germany is lost. If they refuse to attack the ussr because they know that to be complete annihilation they know they would have to sue for peace or have their entire population starve as it did at the end of ww1 not to mention we would still have air superiority over all of Germany eventually since we see the same thing happen IRL and a large portion of the luftwaffe was destroyed by the Brit’s and america as well as most bombings of German cities. WhAt the Russians did was eat up men but there’s a lot more to. 21st century warfare than throwing men into the meat grinder and the USA was better in almost all aspects when it came to that
No. We would “lose” in that we would be unable to penetrate fortress Europe. We would sue for peace.
This post was edited on 5/3/22 at 12:22 pm
Posted on 5/3/22 at 12:28 pm to bdavids09
Wow. Whole lot of people don’t know basic WW2 history.
The OP was speaking of when Germany and Soviet Union invaded Poland, whom France and British had a protection guarantee with. Because of this guarantee, they declared war on Germany. Up to this point, Germany did nothing to UK/France, and wouldn’t for over six months (Aka the Phoney War)
The OP was speaking of when Germany and Soviet Union invaded Poland, whom France and British had a protection guarantee with. Because of this guarantee, they declared war on Germany. Up to this point, Germany did nothing to UK/France, and wouldn’t for over six months (Aka the Phoney War)
Posted on 5/3/22 at 12:31 pm to Eli Goldfinger
quote:
Lesser of 2 evils
By what measure?????
Posted on 5/3/22 at 12:46 pm to Volvagia
quote:
The OP was speaking of when Germany and Soviet Union invaded Poland, whom France and British had a protection guarantee with. Because of this guarantee, they declared war on Germany. Up to this point, Germany did nothing to UK/France, and wouldn’t for over six months (Aka the Phoney War)
Germany invaded Poland to conquer it. Russia invaded Poland to protect their interests, and stop Germany. The OP and you apparently are equating the two. While not a great comparison, it's like equating Germany's invasion of France, and the Allied invasion of France. It's not the Soviets fault that the Allies didn't have their shite together in 1939. Most people with a brain knew we were going to have to fight Germany again by 1936, 1937 at least.
Posted on 5/3/22 at 12:56 pm to Hawgnsincebirth55
quote:
so how does Germany not collapse under its own weight in this scenario?
It most likely would, as every European empire has.
quote:
Considering our navy was the greatest in the world by a pretty wide margin and the no.2 navy was our ally we could completely surround every German port and blockade them in
Blockading is one thing. Invading is another.
quote:
If they refuse to attack the ussr because they know that to be complete annihilation they know they would have to sue for peace or have their entire population starve as it did at the end of ww1
This is the most likely scenario. Why would the US invade fortress Europe when she can just wait her out?
quote:
not to mention we would still have air superiority over all of Germany eventually since we see the same thing happen IRL and a large portion of the luftwaffe was destroyed by the Brit’s and america as well as most bombings of German cities.
Why would America waste lives and materiel when the German empire, as you yourself have noted, would be unsustainable?
Seems more likely the US would stay out of it and let the beast implode than send thousands of men to die.
We wanted nothing to do with European war until our hand was forced by the Japanese.
quote:
WhAt the Russians did was eat up men but there’s a lot more to. 21st century warfare than throwing men into the meat grinder and the USA was better in almost all aspects when it came to that
The Russians are up the elite units and left, for the most part, old men and young boys on the western front.
So, just to clarify… I don’t think the US would have invaded fortress Europe. I think, if anything, the bomb would be what directly ended the reich, not an invasion if the US were to be involved.
If the US stayed out or simply bought time with blockades, the Germans would have eventually collapsed under their own weight as a European empire is simply a mad man’s dream.
Posted on 5/3/22 at 1:01 pm to bdavids09
The same communist that controlled Russia controlled England and France as well.
Posted on 5/3/22 at 1:13 pm to troyt37
quote:
Germany invaded Poland to conquer it. Russia invaded Poland to protect their interests, and stop Germany.
…..
To stop Germany? Prior to the invasion, they signed a non aggression pact whose terms split Poland down the middle. They planned to invade basically together.
The pact stood for 2 years and it was Germany who broke it, not Ussr.
Poland wouldn’t leave USSR dominion for over 40 years.
And you equate that invasion with the Allie’s liberating France?
After the dust settled, they made another treaty formalizing now being neighbors, and agreeing to what their future expansion goals would be.
Russians were not antagonistic to Germans at all.
This post was edited on 5/3/22 at 1:19 pm
Posted on 5/3/22 at 1:15 pm to beerJeep
quote:So it’s pointless to make the claim as you did that we would simply lose without the USSR. The route to victory might have been a different course but in the end the goal is accomplished all the same. The only way nazi Germany ever even continues to exist in a world where America enters into a conflict with it, is a world where the nazis get the bomb first and threatens to nuke some place like Paris if we don’t negotiate an armistice. Because they still wouldn’t have the air power to deliver a bomb anywhere close to an American city and we would still have enough naval power to starve out the Germans as long as they don’t develop the bomb.
If the US stayed out or simply bought time with blockades, the Germans would have eventually collapsed under their own weight as a European empire is simply a mad man’s dream.
This post was edited on 5/3/22 at 1:17 pm
Posted on 5/3/22 at 1:16 pm to bdavids09
Because we needed to use them to bleed the German army out. They had a lot more soldiers and didn’t care about the number of casualties like us so we basically let them wear the Germans down while we bombed Germany into rubble and destroyed the Luftwaffe so they couldn’t fight back when we landed in France.
Posted on 5/3/22 at 1:19 pm to Strannix
quote:
By what measure?????
Dude. By the measure that Russia was killing Russians. Germany was killing people all over by 1939.
Posted on 5/3/22 at 1:20 pm to troyt37
Concentration camp murders didn’t start till 1941
Posted on 5/3/22 at 1:33 pm to Upperdecker
quote:
Also France is generally chicken shite since the French Revolution so not sure why OP even references them
Napoleon would take umbrage at that. So would all the Frenchies in the trenches in WWI.
Germany invaded Poland on September 1, 1939. Britain and France declared war on September 3. The USSR began their invasion on September 16th.
Posted on 5/3/22 at 1:40 pm to Volvagia
quote:
Concentration camp murders didn’t start till 1941
I don't know how you can say that. The first ones were built in 1933, and held mostly political prisoners. They were killing people in the streets, what makes you think they weren't killing them in prison?
Posted on 5/3/22 at 1:50 pm to Hawgnsincebirth55
quote:
So it’s pointless to make the claim as you did that we would simply lose without the USSR.
Not at all.
quote:
The only way nazi Germany ever even continues to exist in a world where America enters into a conflict with it,
That’s the thing. You’re dead set that the US and Germany go at it. I don’t think we would. We would go full bore at Japan if Pearl Harbor happened, but I don’t think hitler declares war on the US with no USSR in the fight. Why bring the US in?
I think we would have taken a Cold War approach. Proxy war, fund “clandestine” groups in Britain, France, etc.
Wait them out and let their collapse happen organically like the USSR did.
I completely agree that Germany would have collapsed no matter what eventually. But not due to a hot war with the US over fortress Europe.
quote:
Because they still wouldn’t have the air power to deliver a bomb anywhere close to an American city and we would still have enough naval power to starve out the Germans as long as they don’t develop the bomb.
Psht. They had die glocke and the ancient alien tech in Antarctica. They Gucci baw
For reals though I do love these hypothetical what ifs
This post was edited on 5/3/22 at 1:52 pm
Posted on 5/3/22 at 1:53 pm to bdavids09
Because it made no sense to do so plus you would’ve made them Allies by force essentially.
Yeah the success D day seems to overshadow a lot of defeats and bloody noses we had fighting a weakened two front war Germany on the western front. Imagine if we went against the whole machine.
quote:
That’s the thing. You’re dead set that the US and Germany go at it. I don’t think we would. We would go full bore at Japan if Pearl Harbor happened, but I don’t think hitler declares war on the US with no USSR in the fight. Why bring the US in?
Yeah the success D day seems to overshadow a lot of defeats and bloody noses we had fighting a weakened two front war Germany on the western front. Imagine if we went against the whole machine.
This post was edited on 5/3/22 at 1:56 pm
Posted on 5/3/22 at 2:20 pm to Palmetto98
I believe Hitler wasn’t really concerned with Great Britain. Of course when they declared war on Germany he had to engage them. But, his main concern was Russia. Make no mistake about it he hated the Soviet Union and communism. He wanted Lebensraum (living space) for Germany in the East. The reason I say this is he had British troops surrounded at Dunkirk and allowed them to be evacuated by sea. He had every opportunity to slaughter British troops but didn’t. He wanted England to mind their own business and let him work in Russia.
Posted on 5/3/22 at 2:24 pm to beerJeep
quote:
That’s the thing. You’re dead set that the US and Germany go at it. I don’t think we would. We would go full bore at Japan if Pearl Harbor happened, but I don’t think hitler declares war on the US with no USSR in the fight. Why bring the US in?
You're confused or something. Germany ensured the USSR was in the war in June 1941 by invading Russia. At that time, the only country the USSR had declared war on was Poland. Germany declared war on the US before the US declared on Germany.
Posted on 5/3/22 at 2:29 pm to beerJeep
quote:we’ll the initial post of yours the I replied to was when you said that without the ussr then we “simply lose” and I just believe that is quite the hyperbolic statement, so I was playing off the parameters you had already set in that we were at war with Germany. Say the Germans and soviets make peace somehow around the spring of 1942 right soon after america and Germany have already declared war. I still don’t see the USA losing. That’s my point. And if you remember Germany declared war on us not the other way around. So after Japan attacks us, and we declare war on japan it seems the Germans would declare war soon after regardless of the situation in the Eastern front
That’s the thing. You’re dead set that the US and Germany go at it.
Posted on 5/3/22 at 2:29 pm to bdavids09
Germany and Russia both invaded Poland with the Russians murdering @ 22k Polish officers, aristocracy, and intellectuals, known as the Katyn massacre.
Russia invaded Finland in Nov of 1939. The Fins were outmanned but held on and, by the most part, put a beating the Russians. Fighting ceased in early 1940 with Fins signing peace treaty with the Russians. That poor showing by the Russians gave Hitler the confidence to invade Russia a year later.
May 10 1940 Germany starts it's Blitzkrieg. Allies collapse. France surrenders June 1940. Hitler assigns Goring the task of destroying the British Airforce before an invasion, so in July 1940 the Battle of Britain Begins.
July to November 1940 the Germans go after the Brits airpower. They are not successful and take heavy losses.
Hitler realizes that there is no quick path to Victory over Britain, so he pivots and starts planning Operation Barbarossa against the Soviet Union.
While all this is going on, The Italians are having a tough time in Greece and Africa. Hitler commits troops and Rommel to Africa and invades Greece.
June 41 Operation Barbarossa begins.
At this time Germany is fighting/occupying/Stationing troops on the border of
Greece
Yugoslavia
France
Belgium
Norway
Netherlands
Britain
and the Soviets are occupying/fighting/Stationing troops on the border of
Poland
Finland
Lithuania
Latvia
Estonia
British and Australians are Fighting in North Africa
December 1941
Pearl Harbor US in the war
Hitler takes control of German Army.
Now the IFS
If Germany doesn't invade the Soviet Union what does Hitler do?
I'd say shore up and commit more troops to Italy, N Africa, and Sicily. Goes to Middle East to secure oil from Iraq and gets Turkey to submit and join the Axis.
Eventually they would need the oil from somewhere because the synthetic oil they were deriving from coal wasn't enough. That would be Hitler's main focus.
I also believe we wouldn't have invaded France with the Operation Overlord plan as there would have been significantly more German troops in France guarding the Atlantic Wall.
My Bet is Stalin would have done some invading and been on the US shite list, possibly an open adversary, ending any lend-lease and other support programs.
Both would have been defeated.
Can you imagine B-29s Bombing the crap out of the Soviets? Probably no Soviet support in China, N Korea, Vietnam.
That would have been glorious.
Russia invaded Finland in Nov of 1939. The Fins were outmanned but held on and, by the most part, put a beating the Russians. Fighting ceased in early 1940 with Fins signing peace treaty with the Russians. That poor showing by the Russians gave Hitler the confidence to invade Russia a year later.
May 10 1940 Germany starts it's Blitzkrieg. Allies collapse. France surrenders June 1940. Hitler assigns Goring the task of destroying the British Airforce before an invasion, so in July 1940 the Battle of Britain Begins.
July to November 1940 the Germans go after the Brits airpower. They are not successful and take heavy losses.
Hitler realizes that there is no quick path to Victory over Britain, so he pivots and starts planning Operation Barbarossa against the Soviet Union.
While all this is going on, The Italians are having a tough time in Greece and Africa. Hitler commits troops and Rommel to Africa and invades Greece.
June 41 Operation Barbarossa begins.
At this time Germany is fighting/occupying/Stationing troops on the border of
Greece
Yugoslavia
France
Belgium
Norway
Netherlands
Britain
and the Soviets are occupying/fighting/Stationing troops on the border of
Poland
Finland
Lithuania
Latvia
Estonia
British and Australians are Fighting in North Africa
December 1941
Pearl Harbor US in the war
Hitler takes control of German Army.
Now the IFS
If Germany doesn't invade the Soviet Union what does Hitler do?
I'd say shore up and commit more troops to Italy, N Africa, and Sicily. Goes to Middle East to secure oil from Iraq and gets Turkey to submit and join the Axis.
Eventually they would need the oil from somewhere because the synthetic oil they were deriving from coal wasn't enough. That would be Hitler's main focus.
I also believe we wouldn't have invaded France with the Operation Overlord plan as there would have been significantly more German troops in France guarding the Atlantic Wall.
My Bet is Stalin would have done some invading and been on the US shite list, possibly an open adversary, ending any lend-lease and other support programs.
Both would have been defeated.
Can you imagine B-29s Bombing the crap out of the Soviets? Probably no Soviet support in China, N Korea, Vietnam.
That would have been glorious.
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