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re: What if Hitler never invaded the Soviet Union

Posted on 5/23/16 at 2:33 pm to
Posted by mule74
Watersound Beach
Member since Nov 2004
11312 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 2:33 pm to
quote:

What if Hitler never invaded the Soviet Union

He would have run out of oil.
Posted by DavidTheGnome
Monroe
Member since Apr 2015
29234 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 4:12 pm to
quote:

The war probably would have lasted longer, but a country the size of Germany would never be able to sustain themselves in a war against so many other countries. Especially the US, since they couldn't realistically attack us we eventually would have overwhelmed them with men and materials.


This always surprised me too, how a country the size of Germany could take on so much of the developed world and sustain it as long as they did.
Posted by Cooter Davenport
Austin, TX
Member since Apr 2012
9006 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 4:15 pm to
quote:

how a country the size of Germany could take on so much of the developed world and sustain it as long as they did


Maybe they really were the master race.
Posted by blueridgeTiger
Granbury, TX
Member since Jun 2004
20331 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 4:27 pm to
quote:

He would have run out of oil.


Germany was buying oil in vast quantities from the Soviet Union before the invasion.
Posted by Cooter Davenport
Austin, TX
Member since Apr 2012
9006 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 4:29 pm to
quote:

Terrorizing England and London, rather than strategically bombing them. (Churchill was never going to give up)


The Luftwaffe lacked strategic bombers. The Germans were literally incapable of mounting anything other than the terror campaign they ran. The Luftwaffe was conceived of, equipped, and trained as a tactical force to support the Wehrmacht in the combined-arms effort we know best as Blitzkrieg. It consisted of air superiority fighters, dive-bombers for taking out enemy tanks, and light bombers for attacking rear areas, infrastructure like railway junctions, and gun emplacements. At the outset of the Battle of Britain they had nothing like a B-17 or B-29 for carpet-bombing, nor the bombing sights, nor the training. The Luftwaffe went into the war equipped and trained for one fight and was thrust into a completely different mission later for which it was not really capable. It's a bit like buying a Porsche 911 and then a year later deciding to start a contracting business using the Porsche to transport your tools and materials.
This post was edited on 5/23/16 at 4:31 pm
Posted by Cooter Davenport
Austin, TX
Member since Apr 2012
9006 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 4:39 pm to
quote:

What if Nazi Germany had begun to fully mobilize its economy for a long war back in, say, 1936 or 1937?


Given that war with the USSR was inevitable, THIS is the real question.

I would agree with you that Germany NEVER switched to full war production. Even after Speer took over in '43 they still didn't put women to work (while in the USSR and the USA women were in factories and the economies of these states - which are as large as continents - were in full war production mode) and Speer talks at length in his book about his fights with the local Party chieftains who bucked him at every step of the way in order to expend resources on local civil infrastructure and vanity projects. A lot of that has to do with the privations the civilian population experienced during WWI, and the contribution that those sacrifices were thought to have made to the collapse of war support and revolution on the home front. Basically the Germans were too scared of their own people to go into full war production.
This post was edited on 5/23/16 at 4:41 pm
Posted by moon
Member since Dec 2010
2470 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 5:06 pm to
He invaded because he knew Stalin would eventually come into Germany.
Posted by RightHook
Member since Dec 2013
5560 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 5:18 pm to
quote:

What if Hitler never invaded the Soviet Union


the soviets would have launched their offensive about 3 weeks later and we would have been fighting the ussr like we should have been all along.
This post was edited on 5/23/16 at 5:46 pm
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
98351 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 5:32 pm to
quote:

The Germans were literally incapable of mounting anything other than the terror campaign they ran. The Luftwaffe was conceived of, equipped, and trained as a tactical force to support the Wehrmacht in the combined-arms effort we know best as Blitzkrieg.


Nitpick: The Luftwaffe was part of the Wehrmacht, which consisted of all the armed forces of Germany, land, sea, and air. The Army was called the Heer.
Posted by Champagne
Already Conquered USA.
Member since Oct 2007
48518 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 8:20 pm to
quote:

Goring was actually a very good fighter pilot in WWI. He was highly decorated, including multiple Iron Crosses and the Pour le Merite. And as a testament of his ability at that time he was selected to replace Manfred von Richthofen as the commander of JG1 after the death of the Red Baron. As for his addiction to morphine, that stemmed from the wounds he received during the failed Beer Hall Putsch in 1923. It was then that his nose dive started.


Goering was not a great fighter pilot in WW1. He was NOT selected to replace von Richtofen. Wilhelm Reinhard was von Richtofen's successor.

Goering finished the war with only 22 victories. That's an indication that he was not aggressively seeking air combat. von Richtofen finished with 80 victories. They flew about the same number of months. I think Goering actually had more months of combat flying at the front.

von Richtofen demanded that his men aggressively seek air combat. He would not have tolerated a shirker like Goering. He would have kicked Goering out of Jasta 11.

Also, even in WW1, Goering's subordinates hated him. Goering was an arrogant rotten and toxic leader NOTHING like Manfred von Richtofen.

Richtofen died 21 April 1918. He was succeeded in command of Jasta 11 by Reinhard, who was killed in July. Goering was a bad choice to replace Reinhard.

Bear in mind that Goering had access to the best fighter plane by far in WW I, he had access to the Fokker DVII "F" with the BMW high-compression 185hp engine. That superior fighter made an average pilot a good one and a good pilot a great one. Really, no Allied fighter plane was even nearly as good as the Fokker DVIIF because that high compression BMW engine was truly superior by a wide margin. An aggressive Jasta leader would have piled up many victories in the Fokker DVIIF, but, Goering was no Richtofen.

Richtofen's months of combat flying never included an advantage like the Fokker DVIIF provided to Goering, who certainly should have racked up more than only 22 victories, if he were aggressive.

So, indeed, it is quite true and proven by Goering's WW1 record that he was not a good leader and not a great fighter pilot. You say he was a "very good" fighter pilot, which is not great, so, we are splitting hairs on this part. He was a bad leader though, that's clear.
This post was edited on 5/23/16 at 8:46 pm
Posted by Champagne
Already Conquered USA.
Member since Oct 2007
48518 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 8:33 pm to
quote:

I would agree with you that Germany NEVER switched to full war production. Even after Speer took over in '43 they still didn't put women to work (while in the USSR and the USA women were in factories and the economies of these states - which are as large as continents - were in full war production mode) and Speer talks at length in his book about his fights with the local Party chieftains who bucked him at every step of the way in order to expend resources on local civil infrastructure and vanity projects. A lot of that has to do with the privations the civilian population experienced during WWI, and the contribution that those sacrifices were thought to have made to the collapse of war support and revolution on the home front. Basically the Germans were too scared of their own people to go into full war production.


Yes, Speer's book is very important for any serious study of WW2. I agree that one must be very conversant and familiar with this book to have even a "good" understanding of WW2.

The local Nazi leaders successfully fought off Speer's efforts to fully mobilize Germany's economy for war and, to an extent did so until the end of the war.

The local Nazi leaders wanted their private trains, their luxurious lifestyles, their pet civilian building projects and their creature comforts. Martin Bormann sided with them and against Speer. Hitler never demanded full economic commitment to a war economy because he wanted to stay popular with both his local Nazi leaders (called Gauleiters) and Hitler wanted to remain popular with the people. Hitler was mindful of the civil unrest in Germany during WW1 because of food shortages. He wanted to remain as popular as possible with the people, so, he never demanded that the German economy be placed on a total war footing -- and it never was put on such a footing.
Posted by BamaFan70
Mississippi
Member since Oct 2009
1568 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 8:43 pm to
Dumbest thing he did. Should have let him take over Western Europe. They'd be better off now.
Posted by tennvol
Member since Nov 2014
2495 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 8:55 pm to
Hitler never wanted a war against the west, it was forced upon him, his only true enemy was communist russia. Furthermore, He would have beaten the soviets completely, were it not for the massive aid provided to the russians by the Americans.
Posted by LongueCarabine
Pointe Aux Pins, LA
Member since Jan 2011
8205 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 9:46 pm to
quote:

were it not for the massive aid provided to the russians by the Americans.


True, we helped the Commies a lot with material aid, but I think Hitler's meddling was more influential in the collapse of the German Army in Russia.

LC
Posted by DavidTheGnome
Monroe
Member since Apr 2015
29234 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 9:55 pm to
quote:

Hitler never wanted a war against the west, it was forced upon him,



How was war with the west forced upon him?
Posted by SWCBonfire
South Texas
Member since Aug 2011
1271 posts
Posted on 5/23/16 at 9:55 pm to
What is all this apologetic nonsense? I guess Hitler "had" to invade the Sudetenland, and Austria, and Poland, and France through neutral Belgium.

The only truth is that Eastern Europe would be much better off had Stalin and Hitler never existed.
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