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re: Visited the Angola Rodeo and Craft fair and was amazed what I saw. Can good come from bad?
Posted on 4/28/19 at 8:37 am to WaWaWeeWa
Posted on 4/28/19 at 8:37 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
And you are right we did have times when murderers were much more likely to go free. As you like to say, “the men who built this country”.
I guess it was a much more violent time overall, more lawless and also much less population. Different circumstances and things like that were commonplace. So violence was more socially acceptable. Far enough removed that it doesn’t have any impact, like reading about Ghengis Khan raping and reaving his way across Asia and Europe.
quote:
Some of them are just really old and you can’t see them as such.
Just like it’s hard to see great grandpa as someone who stormed the beaches and killed dozens of men and had a necklace made of ears.
Time tends to take the edge off men.
1
Posted on 4/28/19 at 8:38 am to fr33manator
quote:
What do you mean?
I’m a criminal defense attorney who has represented and currently represents men housed at Angola.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 8:41 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
It’s exactly why you are normal
Whoa now, let’s not get carried away
Posted on 4/28/19 at 8:42 am to fr33manator
quote:
guess it was a much more violent time overall, more lawless and also much less population. Different circumstances and things like that were commonplace. So violence was more socially acceptable. Far enough removed that it doesn’t have any impact, like reading about Ghengis Khan raping and reaving his way across Asia and Europe.
I think you may just be romanticizing the past. Those times, as far as absolute level of pain and suffering, were magnitudes worse than current day.
There is nothing great about the past. Just a necessary progression toward the present.
quote:
Time tends to take the edge off men.
Very true. But there is still the aspect of serving punishment for the crime you commit. Imagine telling the victims family you are releasing their mother’s killer.
“Your mother’s killer is really good a making wooden trinkets, so we are going to let him out because we think he can contribute to society”
I think you just got caught up in the moment. Like I said, it’s because you are a normal person capable of empathy. If most of the men you are speaking of had the same qualities they wouldn’t be where they are.
This post was edited on 4/28/19 at 8:46 am
Posted on 4/28/19 at 8:43 am to Joshjrn
Okay...well could you maybe give some assessment? Are there really pedos walking around free with kids right there?
Do you think truly rehabilitated men could be released into society and have a positive impact?
Do you think truly rehabilitated men could be released into society and have a positive impact?
Posted on 4/28/19 at 8:50 am to fr33manator
quote:
Do you think truly rehabilitated men could be released into society and have a positive impact?
Yes. I just don’t think competence in woodwork is a good assessment of rehabilitation.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 8:50 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Those times, as far as absolute level of pain and suffering, were magnitudes worse than current day.
Oh I’m well aware. I’m saying that reading about 100’000 people being put to death by hand hundreds of years ago lacks the sting of, say, 9/11.
The farther in the past something is the less it feels real, somehow. That’s why people can discuss it objectively.
quote:
Your mother’s killer is really good a making wooden trinkets, so we are going to let him out because we think he can contribute to society”
Don’t reduce my argument to that. You know that’s not what i’m Saying.
I’m merely suggesting that maybe, if the object of incarceration is rehabilitation, then maybe at some point it’d Time to say “you’ve spent 35 years in here being a model prisoner. You’ve developed skills and bettered yourself. Maybe you deserve another chance.”
Maybe
Just maybe
And obviously case by case
Posted on 4/28/19 at 8:53 am to fr33manator
quote:
Okay...well could you maybe give some assessment? Are there really pedos walking around free with kids right there?
I’ve actually never been to the Rodeo, so I’m not exactly sure how it’s set up. I wouldn’t be comfortable offering conjecture.
quote:
Do you think truly rehabilitated men could be released into society and have a positive impact?
I’m on my phone, so I’m having trouble finding the study I would actually want to cite, but this is an article making reference to the fact that murderers have the lowest recidivism rate, period: LINK /
If someone wants to make the argument that anyone convicted of murder should never taste freedom again because that’s the appropriate retributive remedy, I would disagree with them, but I would understand the logic. But anyone making the argument that everyone convicted of murder would be a scourge on society if released decades later is making an argument that simply isn’t reflective of reality. The overwhelming majority would absolutely be contributing members of society.
I have specific names I could cite as examples of just how absurd our life without parole and parole paradigms are, but again, I don’t know if that’s appropriate.
This post was edited on 4/28/19 at 8:55 am
Posted on 4/28/19 at 8:55 am to fr33manator
I thought the same when I went. Lots of wasted talent in Angola.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 8:56 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
If most of the men you are speaking of had the same qualities they wouldn’t be where they are.
Aye, there’s the rub. I happen to think that almost all men are capable of brutality and heinous acts. We aren’t that different than our distant ancestors that pillaged villages and drank from the skulls of their enemies.
It’s that we live in a society where those behaviours have been culled and there are harsher consequences for breaking that social contract.
But you take away the thin veneer of civilization... the beast man returns. Law of the jungle.
I think I heard it claimed that we are something like 15 meals away from utter chaos.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 8:57 am to Joshjrn
Maybe email me?
<<<<<<@gmail
I’ve got a few questions
<<<<<<@gmail
I’ve got a few questions
Posted on 4/28/19 at 9:05 am to fr33manator
My coworker got a barrel grill built by prisoners in Angola... you wouldn't believe the craftsmanship... perfect welding... probably will last 100 years
Posted on 4/28/19 at 9:06 am to fr33manator
quote:
I never said that. Do they really just let pedos and rapists wander around freely with the public, with kids and young women around?
I can’t imagine that’s the case there, right?
Uh, who do you think is locked up at Angola? Petty thieves?
Remember a few years ago when they caught an inmate in the bathroom with a little girl? I think the inmate was in prison for molestation.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 9:10 am to fr33manator
Just a few points I’d like to make but I’ll address this one first
A man raped and murders a kid. Prosecution has death sentence on the table. Accused accepts a plea deal for life for murder and the rape is dropped. Now he isn’t seen as a sex offender but instead a murderer... on paper anyway. Just an example of how one inmate could be allowed in such a situation.
Another thing I’d like to bring up. The inmates you saw were a very small percentage of what’s in there. Of the maybe 200 you saw, there are 5,800 more that haven’t earned the reward of being able to do hobby craft or sell their items. Some have and their behavior cost them the chance.
Most inmates grew up with no structure. When put in an environment where there is daily routines and rules they possibly can be productive and tap into the hidden talents they have.
While a small percentage are making the most out of their opportunities, the percentage of them, if given freedom, that could stay on the right track if released are even smaller.
They have inmate crews of electricians, plummers, heavy equipment operators, farmers, carpenters, masons, etc that keep that place running. Doesn’t mean they are fit to be productive members of society and have completely paid their debts for their crimes.
quote:
Are there really pedos walking around free with kids right there?
A man raped and murders a kid. Prosecution has death sentence on the table. Accused accepts a plea deal for life for murder and the rape is dropped. Now he isn’t seen as a sex offender but instead a murderer... on paper anyway. Just an example of how one inmate could be allowed in such a situation.
Another thing I’d like to bring up. The inmates you saw were a very small percentage of what’s in there. Of the maybe 200 you saw, there are 5,800 more that haven’t earned the reward of being able to do hobby craft or sell their items. Some have and their behavior cost them the chance.
Most inmates grew up with no structure. When put in an environment where there is daily routines and rules they possibly can be productive and tap into the hidden talents they have.
While a small percentage are making the most out of their opportunities, the percentage of them, if given freedom, that could stay on the right track if released are even smaller.
They have inmate crews of electricians, plummers, heavy equipment operators, farmers, carpenters, masons, etc that keep that place running. Doesn’t mean they are fit to be productive members of society and have completely paid their debts for their crimes.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 9:12 am to fr33manator
quote:
I’m merely suggesting that maybe, if the object of incarceration is rehabilitation,
IMO sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn’t.
Depends on the crime.
What do you think the punishment should be for violently ending a innocent person’s life? Most of the time for a meaningless reason
There is also the objective of deterrence
This post was edited on 4/28/19 at 9:14 am
Posted on 4/28/19 at 9:14 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn’t.
there ain't NO rehabilitation going on in medium to high level security prisons
Posted on 4/28/19 at 9:14 am to fr33manator
Ole Lemongello is there. He has gotten pretty good at making big rocks into smaller rocks. All by hand.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 9:15 am to fr33manator
Posted on 4/28/19 at 9:19 am to EvrybodysAllAmerican
quote:
Lots of wasted talent in Angola.
I think that’s what really struck me to the core.
I realize in my little dark ages Conan the Barbarian Game of Thrones little mental fiefdom that i’m lord of anyone that breaks the Code bad enough...string em up, problem solved, no need for prisons, life goes merrily along.
I also realize that it’s unreasonable. And despite their crimes they were able to be taught and molded and develop usefulness, at the very least in the structured life of prison.
So it’s not that they were, for the most part , innately unsalvagable. It’s that their potential to be a productive member of society was untapped and without purpose, they fell into the violent tendencies of the beast within.
And if these men who made terrible choices can be rehabilitated and find use, then Many of those whose future is heading for the same place could be similarly, preemptively rehabilitated.
Take them out of the world that fosters the violence, give them purpose and structure, and tap that potential that would otherwise go to waste.
Idle hands are the devil’s playground
Posted on 4/28/19 at 9:20 am to 777Tiger
quote:
there ain't NO rehabilitation going on in medium to high level security prisons
I didn’t say there was. He asked if the goal of prison is rehabilitation. I said sometimes. There are other factors
Deterrence
Safety of society
Punishment for a crime (“eye for an eye”)
There are lots of factors. Like I said, depends on the crime.
Someone who shoplifts or sells drugs to kids should be focused on rehabilitation
Someone who violently murders a family of 4 or rapes and murders and innocent woman needs to never see the light of day again. I don’t even want to hear about “rehabilitation”
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