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Started By
Message
re: Update: Pilots in Ethiopian Air crash followed Boeing’s emergency procedures
Posted on 4/3/19 at 6:39 am to KwoodTiger
Posted on 4/3/19 at 6:39 am to KwoodTiger
quote:
Seems someone needs to look into the Boeing-FAA lobby as clearly the FAA wasn’t doing it’s job when every other country on the planet grounded these planes.
Didn't McDonnell-Douglas cozy up to the FAA head one time?
Problem is who could buy Boeing?
0
Posted on 4/3/19 at 7:28 am to Sun God
Posted on 4/3/19 at 7:43 am to RedRifle
quote:
the crew couldn’t get the aircraft to climb and ended up turning it back on and relying on other steps before the final plunge
Just in case Lchbx’s wasn’t enough.
Be interested to see what this means.
Posted on 4/3/19 at 7:47 am to RedRifle
Posted on 4/3/19 at 7:55 am to baldona
quote:
Just in case Lchbx’s wasn’t enough.
Be interested to see what this means.
Well if I’m following procedures, and they aren’t working, chances are I’m gonna try something else
Maybe they were trying to turn it off and back on again?
Posted on 4/3/19 at 7:59 am to Napoleon
Posted on 4/3/19 at 8:12 am to Thib-a-doe Tiger
quote:
Well if I’m following procedures, and they aren’t working, chances are I’m gonna try something else
Maybe they were trying to turn it off and back on again?
That’s not how the procedures work that I’ve seen.
The pilots are supposed to manually get the plane to a level flight and acceptable altitude, then slowly test things one at a time until they find the issue. The planes are not complicated to take off and fly manually at 5,000 ft. It’s adding all of the other features and automation that makes it difficult.
My guess is that this MCAS system is probably in for a major overhaul and there was also some pilot error. The two problems together caused the crash.
This post was edited on 4/3/19 at 8:13 am
Posted on 4/3/19 at 8:33 am to baldona
Isn’t it a wonder that in America there were thousands of segments flown totaling thousands of hours with no issues? Both issues were international with non-American pilots / airlines. Bottom line is foreign pilots are terrible.
When I was a military pilot I would see all kinds of foreign military pilots operating a Boeing machine and wonder how in the living hell they passed the muster.
When I was a military pilot I would see all kinds of foreign military pilots operating a Boeing machine and wonder how in the living hell they passed the muster.
Posted on 4/3/19 at 8:44 am to OleWarSkuleAlum
If it ain’t Boeing, I ain’t going
To live
To live
Posted on 4/3/19 at 8:58 am to Thib-a-doe Tiger
I hope the FAA officials that signed off on this put the kickback from Boeing in an offshore account
Posted on 4/3/19 at 9:01 am to RedRifle
Damn those Ethiopians finna eat more than they ever have.
Posted on 4/3/19 at 9:02 am to baldona
The procedures may not have allowed them to fix it once MCAS gets the stabilizer to a given point, and airspeed hits a pretty high level. See this link.
LINK
"Nowhere is it described the trim could be impossible to move if the Cut-Out switches were cut at the slightest miss-trim at the speeds flown. And there is no warning on when to move the Cut-Out switches, the checklist says “Cut, then trim manually”. This is not the whole truth."
LINK
"Nowhere is it described the trim could be impossible to move if the Cut-Out switches were cut at the slightest miss-trim at the speeds flown. And there is no warning on when to move the Cut-Out switches, the checklist says “Cut, then trim manually”. This is not the whole truth."
Posted on 4/3/19 at 9:05 am to RedRifle
Can you imagine being the engineers/developers who designed MCAS? Knowing that your Frick Up caused 300+ people to Plunge to their deaths.
Posted on 4/3/19 at 9:24 am to RedRifle
So the only way to disable the MCAS is to shut off power to a number of systems, one of which is the MCAS?
Why is there just not a disengage switch/button for the MCAS itself?
Why is there just not a disengage switch/button for the MCAS itself?
Posted on 4/3/19 at 9:30 am to LSUFanHouston
You don't just add systems while keeping a common type rating and giving pilots an hour of ipad familiarization.
They weren't even told about the MCAS system's existence originally, until the Lion Air crash. And they made the MCAS to only use one AOA (angle of attack) sensor, while making the notification of disagreement between the two sensors an optional safety feature for airlines.
The point today is that if you hit a certain speed, you need electric trim to adjust the horizontal stabilizer, and the elevators may not even respond to the pilot inputs. We don't have any reason yet to think the pilot did anything wrong here, vs. instruction. That's a pretty big problem.
They weren't even told about the MCAS system's existence originally, until the Lion Air crash. And they made the MCAS to only use one AOA (angle of attack) sensor, while making the notification of disagreement between the two sensors an optional safety feature for airlines.
The point today is that if you hit a certain speed, you need electric trim to adjust the horizontal stabilizer, and the elevators may not even respond to the pilot inputs. We don't have any reason yet to think the pilot did anything wrong here, vs. instruction. That's a pretty big problem.
Posted on 4/3/19 at 9:34 am to sotex
quote:
You don't just add systems while keeping a common type rating and giving pilots an hour of ipad familiarization.
Which seems like a big part of the problem. Coming forward about the changes in the plane would have required additional training, but they didn't want to do that. To me, that's a criminal decision.
Posted on 4/3/19 at 9:37 am to LSUFanHouston
quote:
Coming forward about the changes in the plane would have required additional training, but they didn't want to do that.
not how this works, unless those pilots are only going to operate in Ethiopia, the FAA mandates required training if the carrier is going to operate in the US and that standard sort of transfers to most other civilized countries
Posted on 4/3/19 at 9:40 am to 777Tiger
quote:
not how this works, unless those pilots are only going to operate in Ethiopia, the FAA mandates required training if the carrier is going to operate in the US and that standard sort of transfers to most other civilized countries
My understanding is that MCAS was created to compensate for changes in how the plane is flown due to relocation of components. My understanding is also that if the pilots were simply given adequate training on the changes, then MCAS would not have been needed.
They could have treated the MAX, for training purposes, as a whole different plane with it's own training program, but decided not to do that and created MCAS instead, as the MCAS would "cover for" the changes between the old and new aircraft.
Is my understanding incorrect?
Posted on 4/3/19 at 9:42 am to 777Tiger
Respectfully, that's how American pilots were transitioned.
LINK
Pilots who were training to transition from flying previous Boeing 737 models to the newer 737 Max 8 jets were given a short online course to complete, pilots unions for two major U.S. airlines told CNN.
The course was described by Allied Pilots Association representative Captain Dennis Tajer as a 56-minute online course that was completed on an iPad. Tajer acknowledges that the brief transition course are often sufficient for talented pilots, however the course he took didn't include any mention of the MCAS system now under investigation as a potential root cause in two recent Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes.
LINK
Pilots who were training to transition from flying previous Boeing 737 models to the newer 737 Max 8 jets were given a short online course to complete, pilots unions for two major U.S. airlines told CNN.
The course was described by Allied Pilots Association representative Captain Dennis Tajer as a 56-minute online course that was completed on an iPad. Tajer acknowledges that the brief transition course are often sufficient for talented pilots, however the course he took didn't include any mention of the MCAS system now under investigation as a potential root cause in two recent Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes.
Posted on 4/3/19 at 9:45 am to LSUFanHouston
Yes, MCAS was added as an additional step/device on the aircraft as the new/heavier engines (with bigger fans) had to be moved forward about 6 inches, so Boeing devised MCAS as an improvisation to make the aircraft perform, at a stall (with the CG moved a bit) in a manner similar to the previous type (if, of course, the AOA data was good).
It just hasn't worked out real well.
It just hasn't worked out real well.
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