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Started By
Message
re: The Manson Family Murders
Posted on 12/10/22 at 3:56 pm to midnight1961
Posted on 12/10/22 at 3:56 pm to midnight1961
quote:
If you've never read Helter Skelter, put it on your list.
It's a completely bogus, made up bunch of crap. It should be in the fiction section of bookstores.
0
Posted on 12/10/22 at 3:58 pm to GreatLakesTiger24
quote:
wasn't he a MK Ultra patient with an FBI handler?
Yep
Posted on 12/10/22 at 4:16 pm to Pandy Fackler
quote:
If Manson was "coming up today", he'd be a white supremacist, not a progressive liberal. He hated blacks and wanted to start a race war.
So do the dems.
Posted on 12/10/22 at 4:33 pm to midnight1961
MK Ultra
Posted on 12/10/22 at 4:51 pm to Heyes
quote:
Bugliosi was caught in more than one lie about this case when it didn’t fit his narrative .
Such as? I'm curious.
Posted on 12/10/22 at 4:55 pm to Cobra Bite
quote:
Reading both and forming an opinion does not mean you have formed the correct opinion.
Bugliosi prosecuted and sent them all to Death Row. He knows details that were never revealed to the public.
Read Chaos and you'll find Tom O'Neill knows more.
Posted on 12/10/22 at 4:57 pm to midnight1961
quote:
fairly normal young adults to willingly kill for him
frickin psychos
Posted on 12/10/22 at 5:01 pm to DaleGribble
quote:
By Joe Rogan fans, maybe. Tom O'Neil clearly isn't a Bugliosi fan but Helter Skelter is still a very accurate book.
I wouldn't know anything about that but I've read both books and what Tom O'Neill uncovers is sorta mindblowing.
Posted on 12/10/22 at 5:05 pm to Heyes
quote:
The truth is Melcher actually visited Spahn ranch twice after the murders . This defeats the whole purpose of why Charlie went ahead when he did if Melcher is still visiting him .
And it's verified.
Posted on 12/10/22 at 5:15 pm to SoFla Tideroller
I gave an example on the previous page involving Terry Melcher
Tom Oneil never claims Manson or his followers did not commit the murders
What he claims is Bugliosi lied over and over to get a conviction based on The narrative that Helter Skelter was the reason. Any evidence to the contrary was withheld , hidden , or ignored.
Did Manson and his crew do it ? Yes
Was Manson used has a lab rat and given lsd to supply his followers and to brainwash his followers into committing crimes has part of some MK Ultra experiment that they had already done on real rats ( rodents )
That is the question . The CIA wanted to know if regular middle class people could be taken so far outside of what they would normally do … would they kill , violently , with malice … with no conscience.
Tom Oneil never claims Manson or his followers did not commit the murders
What he claims is Bugliosi lied over and over to get a conviction based on The narrative that Helter Skelter was the reason. Any evidence to the contrary was withheld , hidden , or ignored.
Did Manson and his crew do it ? Yes
Was Manson used has a lab rat and given lsd to supply his followers and to brainwash his followers into committing crimes has part of some MK Ultra experiment that they had already done on real rats ( rodents )
That is the question . The CIA wanted to know if regular middle class people could be taken so far outside of what they would normally do … would they kill , violently , with malice … with no conscience.
This post was edited on 12/10/22 at 5:16 pm
Posted on 12/10/22 at 5:17 pm to Heyes
I picked up Chaos today. Excited to dive in this evening.
Posted on 12/10/22 at 5:21 pm to Kvothe
quote:
I picked up Chaos today. Excited to dive in this evening.
It's a pretty captivating read. Tom O'Neill spent 20 years writing it. When it began, it wasn't meant to be anything more than an murder anniversary magazine article.
Chaos is so thoroughly written, that Helter Skelter has really become nothing more than a companion piece.
This post was edited on 12/10/22 at 5:29 pm
Posted on 12/15/22 at 1:13 pm to Pandy Fackler
quote:
wouldn't know anything about that but I've read both books and what Tom O'Neill uncovers is sorta mindblowing.
I haven't read that book but I saw a special on TV a while back that may have been based on his book. All the other specials you see on the Manson murders involve Bugliosi and are from his point of view. This one didn't involve him and went into detail about what all Bugliosi had possibly fabricated to make the case more spectacular. Not only to help him get a conviction, but to become famous himself and cash in on writing books. I can't remember all the details but it made me question all of the supposed facts if the case we'd always heard
Posted on 12/15/22 at 1:28 pm to GreatLakesTiger24
quote:
wasn't he a MK Ultra patient with an FBI handler?
Yes, and he was specifically picked because of his charisma and ability to get people to do things they wouldn't otherwise.
Posted on 12/16/22 at 12:24 pm to Pandy Fackler
quote:
I wouldn't know anything about that but I've read both books and what Tom O'Neill uncovers is sorta mindblowing.
I'm trying to read it right now. But, like the last time, I'm having a hard time getting past his digs at Bugliosi and the fact that I've already read the details of this case in so many other places.
I had the same problem trying to listen to him on Rogan. He comes across as petty, envious, and hardly objective.
People claiming that Helter Skelter belongs in the fiction section are nuts and need to point out at least one inaccuracy in that book to support their claims.
Posted on 12/16/22 at 12:30 pm to Heyes
quote:
What he claims is Bugliosi lied over and over to get a conviction based on The narrative that Helter Skelter was the reason. Any evidence to the contrary was withheld , hidden , or ignored.
Why does that matter? He needed a motive to prosecute the case and Helter Skelter was it. Did Manson talk to his followers about an upcoming race war and the need to move to Death Valley? Yes, so what does it matter if it was the real motive for the murders?
The real motive seemed to be to create copycat crimes in an attempt to make the police think that they arrested the wrong guy, when they arrested Bobby B for the Gary Hinman murder.
Posted on 12/16/22 at 1:22 pm to DaleGribble
I’d put Tom O'Neill right down there with Maury Terry. Well, except Maury Terry is dead.
Posted on 12/18/22 at 10:26 am to DaleGribble
Why does that matter? He needed a motive to prosecute the case and Helter Skelter was it. Did Manson talk to his followers about an upcoming race war and the need to move to Death Valley? Yes, so what does it matter if it was the real motive for the murders?
————————————————————
Are you really ok with a prosecutor getting a conviction by any means necessary ?
Stephen Kay ( Bugliosi’s asst ) was shown a legal pad that was uncovered while Tom Oneil was going through the trial records at the D A’s office.
Kay says “ hey This is Vince’s handwriting. I have never seen this and it definitely wasn’t given to the defense . “
On this legal pad were questions asked to Danny Dicarlo ( straight satan bike gang member who frequented the family ) and also another person . Both men saw Melcher in late aug and early sept at Spahn and later when they moved to Barker ranch in Death Valley . If given to the defense this BLOWS UP the prosecutions case about Helter Skelter starting after May’s Melcher meeting with Manson to tell him he sucked and wouldn’t be getting a record deal .
I am no Manson fan. But if the truth would have come out that Manson was being used to facilitate a CIA MKULTRA experiment … people in this country would have stormed the cia and probably ripped anyone in that building limb from limb
Posted on 12/18/22 at 1:33 pm to Heyes
quote:
Are you really ok with a prosecutor getting a conviction by any means necessary ?
When it comes to motive and the Manson Family, I am. Nothing involving Melcher blows up anything. Manson spoke frequently about Helter Skelter to his followers. He was never targeting Melcher and a record deal had nothing to do with the murders.
IMO, they were trying to get Bobby Beousoleil out of jail by committing copycat crimes to make the police believe that the murderer of Gary Hinman was still out there.
Posted on 12/18/22 at 1:39 pm to OweO
quote:
You give people in their late teens, early 20s acid it will make them do things they have no idea they are doing.
I did acid several times in my late teens/early 20's. Never went around the bend and harmed anyone.
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