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re: The Hagia Sophia was consecrated as a church on this day in AD 537...
Posted on 12/27/22 at 12:57 pm to Froman
Posted on 12/27/22 at 12:57 pm to Froman
quote:
Why?
Why?
Because it was built as a church, it was consecrated as a church, some of the most holy men and women worshipped as Christians in that church, and it belongs safely back with Christendom.
5
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:08 pm to GetCocky11
The two are connected. Columbus sold the idea of sailing west to the Indies as a way of avoiding the Turks and Mohammedians. The Turks did not prevent the overland route but it was taxed heavily. Mehmet and his successors were generally very tolerant of Christians and Jews in the empire. Forced conversion was limited and was something of a forfeit to only the children of of those he conquered and at that the children of the nobles mostly....see the Jannisaries who were the Sultan's personal guard and crack troops. Rumor has it that Vlad Tepes was a Muslim as a teen when he was given to the Sultan as forfeit by his father.
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:09 pm to beerJeep
quote:
Psht. Notre dame of Rouen and notre dame of Reims >>>>>> notre dame of Paris.
I've been to all 3 and it truly depends on your subjective taste or appreciation of history
I would rank Reims, Paris, and Rouen in that order
Reims is most esthetic with longer history. Paris has the Hunchback, and Rouen has Joan of Arc
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:10 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Because it was built as a church, it was consecrated as a church, some of the most holy men and women worshipped as Christians in that church, and it belongs safely back with Christendom.
Its been 600 years.
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:18 pm to RollTide1987
One of the first things Mehmet did after the Fall of Constantinople was go to the Hagia Sophia and have an imam consecrate it as a mosque. He then ordered minarets built. In 1923 Ataturk in an attempt to quell a budding civil war in coastal Turkey decided to decommission it as a mosque and make it into a museum. Neither the Muslims or Christians could have it.
I have members of my family who were ethnic Greek in coastal Turkey who were not pleased with that arrangement. Of course my grandfather and great- grandfather were not pleased with the existence of Turks in general.
I have members of my family who were ethnic Greek in coastal Turkey who were not pleased with that arrangement. Of course my grandfather and great- grandfather were not pleased with the existence of Turks in general.
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:22 pm to RollTide1987
We owe the saving of Western Civilization to a bunch of crazy Poles charging downhill against a much larger force
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:22 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Because it was built as a church, it was consecrated as a church, some of the most holy men and women worshipped as Christians in that church, and it belongs safely back with Christendom.
So all buildings and lands where religion was practiced should go back to the original practicioners?
Is that your stance? Have you thought this through?
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:24 pm to KiwiHead
In addition, the Ottomans were interested in Vienna due to its location and importance as the confluence of two trade routes, and had supported various factions led by Christians to undermine the Hapsburgs. The geopolitical angle is the one that never seems to get repeated, as the domination of the Mediterranean was the goal of the Ottomans, and had made them wealthy, just like control of that portion of West Asia made several previous empires wealthy.
This post was edited on 12/27/22 at 3:26 pm
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:25 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Because it was built as a church, it was consecrated as a church, some of the most holy men and women worshipped as Christians in that church, and it belongs safely back with Christendom
Well, to the victor goes the spoils.
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:29 pm to GetCocky11
quote:
Its been 600 years.
So? Jerusalem fell to the Muslims in the year 637 and the Crusaders didn't take the city back until the year 1099 - a period of some 462 years in length.
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:32 pm to BayouBlitz
quote:
So all buildings and lands where religion was practiced should go back to the original practicioners?
Definitely not.
quote:
Is that your stance? Have you thought this through?
I have. The original owners are still around. When the Muslims took Jerusalem it took about 500 years but the Christians eventually took it back. Now it's a shared city where the three Abrahamic religions can worship peacefully. It was not always so.
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:35 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
The geopolitical angle is the one that never seems to get repeated,
Because it kind of muddies the waters of the Muslim vs. Christian/East vs. West discourse. But I do think it makes the story much more interesting.
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:35 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Divine intervention
Eh. That's probably why/how it was allowed to be taken in the first place.
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:39 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Now it's a shared city where the three Abrahamic religions can worship peacefully. It was not always so.
It wasn't so under Roman/Byzantine Christian rule. It actually became so after the Muslim conquest.
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:40 pm to LittleJerrySeinfield
quote:
That's probably why/how it was allowed to be taken in the first place.
I'm sure it is.
The eastern church broke from the Chair of St. Peter and were slowly gobbled up by the religion of Islam as punishment. Of the five original patriarchs (Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem), only Rome remained unoccupied and unconquered by Islam. The other four were involved in the Great Schism of 1054.
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:44 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:
It wasn't so under Roman/Byzantine Christian rule. It actually became so after the Muslim conquest.
This is a highly simplified version of events. One of the reasons why the First Crusade was launched in the first place is because the Seljuk Turks - the new kids on the block - denied Christians access to the city. There were obviously other socio-economic and political reasons but the brutality of the Seljuk Turks definitely played a role.
Earlier Islamic regimes had been more or less tolerant of Jews and Christians to varying degrees. Not the Seljuk Turks.
Posted on 12/27/22 at 1:44 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
The eastern church broke from the Chair of St. Peter and were slowly gobbled up by the religion of Islam as punishment.
Oh geez.
Posted on 12/27/22 at 2:05 pm to JohnnyBgood
quote:
As one of the longest reining, and most powerful Empires in world history, the Ottoman cannons reduced the legendary Theodosian walls to rubble after a 53 day siege. A major turning point in world history as the path to Europe was open for the Muslims to invade.
Currently watching the Netflix series about Mehmet II and his conquest of Constantinople.
Posted on 12/27/22 at 2:11 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:
Because it kind of muddies the waters of the Muslim vs. Christian/East vs. West discourse. But I do think it makes the story much more interesting.
It's way more interesting. Understanding Near and Middle East religions as a larger framework of resistance to Mediterranean powers competing in West Asia is the way we should regard all historical events, as by removing all the emotional angles makes apparent certain historical trends. The Ummayads basically copied Byzantine, and thus Greco-Roman administrative institutions, a pattern that continued until the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, and then started a conflicts which closely fit the pattern of conflict that started with the Persians and Greeks. At some points, it was two Muslim Empires who fit into that pattern of competition, where more of less whoever controlled Asia Minor was pitted against whoever controlled the Iranian Plateau, or Asia Minor versus the Mesopatamian Basin and on and on.
Posted on 12/27/22 at 2:26 pm to RollTide1987
In a country where only ~2% of the population is Christian, so it seems the only way would be to fight a war over architecture.
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