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re: Supreme Court ponders the right to pray on the 50-yard line
Posted on 4/26/22 at 12:56 pm to Antonio Moss
Posted on 4/26/22 at 12:56 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
This only makes sense if you completely ignore the concept of a State Actor.
There is a lot of ignoring in the supreme court. Plessy v ferguson. Dredd Scott v Sandford
0
Posted on 4/26/22 at 1:01 pm to SixthAndBarone
quote:
Nobody has the right to pray
Wuuuuuuuuuuuuut?
Posted on 4/26/22 at 1:09 pm to meansonny
quote:
He is kneeling on the 50 yard line and praying by himself silently. Others (players and coaches) are voluntarily gathering with him.
But why is praying at the 50 yard line necessary? Usually when you need or want a personal moment at work, you find privacy for it. Why can’t the prayer wait a moment until the coach isn’t in the middle of the field in full view of everyone?
Just let the parents handle how their kid is exposed to religion.
Posted on 4/26/22 at 1:13 pm to Globetrotter747
quote:
But why is praying at the 50 yard line necessary? Usually when you need or want a personal moment at work, you find privacy for it. Why can’t the prayer wait a moment until the coach isn’t in the middle of the field in full view of everyone?
Just let the parents handle how their kid is exposed to religion.
It is an invitation for like minded Christians to join him in prayer. You don't want to, then just keep on going.
Posted on 4/26/22 at 1:17 pm to Globetrotter747
quote:
But why is praying at the 50 yard line necessary? Usually when you need or want a personal moment at work, you find privacy for it. Why can’t the prayer wait a moment until the coach isn’t in the middle of the field in full view of everyone?
This. dude is making a spectacle of it and masking it as a first amendment battle. No one is coming to his house, or church or hell in the middle of the street to get him to stop. This is about doing it at a public school during a publicly funded event. If a Christian parent saw their child praying with a group of Muslims to fit in and not be shunned that parent would be calling to burn the whole school down.
Posted on 4/26/22 at 1:37 pm to Mike da Tigah
So many bad takes in this thread
Posted on 4/26/22 at 2:36 pm to brewhan davey
(1) There is clearly no problem with a coach saying a prayer by himself in his office.
(2) The facts at issue here, however, started with the coach praying at midfield at the end of the game by himself. That is problematic in itself in that it is: a state actor, on public property, engaging in a public demonstration.
(3) It gets far more problematic when students join him. It's no longer an individual moment.
(4) It gets more problematic when it becomes a tradition after every game. It's now a ritual rather than spontaneous, and expectations are created.
(5) It gets more problematic when the majority of the team joins in and you consider that he is the head coach. Now you have elements of coercion. When it comes to teacher-student relationships, more rules and regulations become applicable because of the power imbalance in the respective parties.
Fact pattern (1) is not a problem. By the time you get to fact pattern (5), however, the situation could easily run afoul of Establishment Clause prohibitions.
(2) The facts at issue here, however, started with the coach praying at midfield at the end of the game by himself. That is problematic in itself in that it is: a state actor, on public property, engaging in a public demonstration.
(3) It gets far more problematic when students join him. It's no longer an individual moment.
(4) It gets more problematic when it becomes a tradition after every game. It's now a ritual rather than spontaneous, and expectations are created.
(5) It gets more problematic when the majority of the team joins in and you consider that he is the head coach. Now you have elements of coercion. When it comes to teacher-student relationships, more rules and regulations become applicable because of the power imbalance in the respective parties.
Fact pattern (1) is not a problem. By the time you get to fact pattern (5), however, the situation could easily run afoul of Establishment Clause prohibitions.
Posted on 4/26/22 at 2:37 pm to Globetrotter747
quote:
But why is praying at the 50 yard line necessary? Usually when you need or want a personal moment at work, you find privacy for it. Why can’t the prayer wait a moment until the coach isn’t in the middle of the field in full view of everyone?
Why and why not?
It is an inalienable right.
Health and community are excellent things to pray for and when is a better time than before and after a sporting event.
quote:
Just let the parents handle how their kid is exposed to religion.
I agree. That is why he is silent.
So everyone else can pray (or not) in their own fashion.
Posted on 4/26/22 at 2:40 pm to mindbreaker
quote:
If a Christian parent saw their child praying with a group of Muslims to fit in and not be shunned that parent would be calling to burn the whole school down.
No. Lol. I laugh at these lies with no evidence.
The coach is praying silently. He may be praying to stick it to your mom and you wouldnt know any different.
Christians arent losing their gaskets because they are in the presence of jews, muslims, or hinduists. Freedom of religion has been a staple in this country long enough for christians to grasp how it works.
Posted on 4/26/22 at 2:47 pm to Salviati
quote:
(1) There is clearly no problem with a coach saying a prayer by himself in his office.
I agree. But is it his office (i.e. classroom)? Or does he work for the county?
quote:
(2) The facts at issue here, however, started with the coach praying at midfield at the end of the game by himself. That is problematic in itself in that it is: a state actor, on public property, engaging in a public demonstration.
Praying silently in public is not a public demonstration.
He isnt blocking traffic.
He isnt blocking the next sporting event.
He isnt making a sound. He isnt kneeling in your way or mine.
It isnt a demonstration.
quote:
(3) It gets far more problematic when students join him. It's no longer an individual moment.
I strongly disagree. For everyone who prays silently, it is an individual moment. Undeniably an individual moment.
For any students who lead a prayer outwardly, they have that right.
quote:
It gets more problematic when the majority of the team joins in and you consider that he is the head coach. Now you have elements of coercion. When it comes to teacher-student relationships, more rules and regulations become applicable because of the power imbalance in the respective parties.
There is no coercion from the coach? Where is your evidence? The school AND school board supports his right to pray. That is evidence that those choosing to kneel have the same mindset as the coach and he isnt coercing them.
How can the coach have a power imbalance? If he speaks out loud in prayer, he is in violation of the law.
Where is the power imbalance when he is muted by power of the gun.
quote:
Fact pattern (1) is not a problem. By the time you get to fact pattern (5), however, the situation could easily run afoul of Establishment Clause prohibitions
I strongly disagree.
Posted on 4/26/22 at 2:48 pm to meansonny
Liberals are so weak. Always got to bitch about something and play the victim.
Posted on 4/26/22 at 5:59 pm to meansonny
quote:
Praying silently in public is not a public demonstration.
if he was really not wanting it to be a public demonstration why is he doing it right in the middle of the field instead of off to the side somewhere?
Posted on 4/26/22 at 6:16 pm to sgallo3
quote:
why is he doing it right in the middle of the field
Why or why not?
It is his inalienable right.
I presume he was praying about the game (the health of the players, blessings on the coaches and refs, thankful for the community support of the team). Why not on the 50?
Posted on 4/26/22 at 6:22 pm to meansonny
I don't care if he prays or not. but don't do it right in the middle of the field and try to tell me you are only doing it for yourself. even Kaepernick owned up to the fact that he was kneeling on the field during the anthem to bring it to peoples' attention.
Posted on 4/26/22 at 6:28 pm to sgallo3
quote:
don't care if he prays or not
quote:
but don't do it right in the middle of the field
Well, you obviously do care.
quote:
and try to tell me you are only doing it for yourself.
I havent spoken with him. Is that what ue says? You seem to be projecting a lot.
quote:
even Kaepernick owned up to the fact that he was kneeling on the field during the anthem to bring it to peoples' attention.
This isnt kaepernick. You and i dont know his motivation for the 50 yard line. But he has an inalienable right to practice his faith. If you didnt care, you would just turn around and go home. Why do you care about his faith? What about his faith bothers you?
Posted on 4/26/22 at 6:32 pm to meansonny
quote:
Why do you care about his faith? What about his faith bothers you?
His faith doesn't bother me in the slightest. It is about creating a division between the players on his team that share his religion and those that do not that interests me and the legal interpretation.
You are personally offended in every case that you discuss the legal outcome of?
Posted on 4/26/22 at 6:47 pm to sgallo3
quote:
I don't care if he prays or not. but don't do it right in the middle of the field and try to tell me you are only doing it for yourself. even Kaepernick owned up to the fact that he was kneeling on the field during the anthem to bring it to peoples' attention.
in the middle of the field, after a game... when no one is paying attention to the field anymore. people are leaving or talking etc.
that is a lot different than when cameras are scoping everyone during the anthem done specifically for attention.
Posted on 4/26/22 at 6:48 pm to meansonny
quote:
Why or why not?
It is his inalienable right.
I presume he was praying about the game (the health of the players, blessings on the coaches and refs, thankful for the community support of the team). Why not on the 50?
Doing it on the 50 yard line under the lights just post-game as well as asking the opposing team and coaches to join looks very much like he is doing it in his capacity as a government employee. That starts to look a lot like he us rubbing up against Garcetti.
Anyone that has been in the military knows some of your rights are given up while you are in uniform. There are things you give up as an employee of the government that are protected when you are a private citizen. This was the opinion of some of the most conservative justices to sit on the modern bench: Thomas, Scalia, and Alito. Kennedy wrote the opinion in Garcetti and while by that time he was more of a swing vote he was a strong proponent of individual rights and authored opinions like Romer v. Evans and Boumediene v. Bush.
While I don't know where the majority will fall on this case (I expect it to be 5-4) I think any exception for Coach Kennedy based on the cursory review of the facts will be tenuous.
Posted on 4/26/22 at 6:51 pm to AMS
quote:
in the middle of the field, after a game... when no one is paying attention to the field anymore. people are leaving or talking etc.
that is a lot different than when cameras are scoping everyone during the anthem done specifically for attention.
That is exactly what his prayer session turned into after he started doing it on the field and inviting others. There is little question there was intention to draw attention.
Posted on 4/26/22 at 6:51 pm to Mike da Tigah
Just listened to the 2 hr scotus argument from yesterday. Very interesting to hear it. It seems to be about government endorsement of the coaches actions, versus coercion. Seems pretty easy to understand. The coach should win.
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