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1
Posted on 4/4/18 at 12:11 pm to OweO
quote:
Wouldn't this be similar to.. let's say a bridge collapsing? If a bridge collapses and someone or multiple people are killed, can the owner of the engineering company and the civil engineers who designed it be charged with murder?
If they knew there was a real chance the bridge would collapse, yes, they can be charged with murder.
When I was a prosecutor, there was a case where a contractor installed a steel staircase in a stair hall. He cut corners by not installing a safety load bearing board that helped distribute the weight of the staircase. He did so because the board wasn’t delivered when it was supposed to be and he was under time constraints to get the job completed. He talked to a couple workers on site and they said the rebar should carry the weight fine, that the board was just an additional safety feature. So he told them to install the staircase.
A few weeks later, the staircase comes crashing down and kills a poor maintenance man working at the bottom.
The contractor was charged with murder. He violated the safety protocol. He did it to save money. He knew what he was doing and did so willfully. Asking a couple laborers about it and getting them to give him the answer that he wants isn’t good enough and doesn’t absolve him of responsibility. HE is the general contractor, not a couple of laborers. He is the expert, he is the one ultimately responsible for making the decision. And he chose the wrong one. And he chose it for purely economical reasons and chose to knowingly put people’s lives in danger by not following established safety and then trying to cover it up. When all that failed, he tried to blame others.
He should have shut down work until the board arrived. Maybe he has to recoup any losses from the sub. Maybe he has to sue them. Maybe he has to eat the loss. Sucks but that’s what you may have to do sometime.
He reached a plea agreement for manslaughter.
Posted on 4/4/18 at 12:31 pm to JPinLondon
If they are charging the owner with murder charges bc someone died on one of the rides in his park then by the same logic shouldn’t they also charge him with attempted murder for everyone that rode the ride and survived?
I get where manslaughter would be appropriate but unless he was intentionally trying to kill people then I don’t see how a murder charge could possibly stick.
I get where manslaughter would be appropriate but unless he was intentionally trying to kill people then I don’t see how a murder charge could possibly stick.
This post was edited on 4/4/18 at 12:35 pm
Posted on 4/4/18 at 12:37 pm to TigerFanatic99
Yall remember this the next time you build a slip in slide in the back yard.
Posted on 4/4/18 at 12:39 pm to OweO
quote:
Wouldn't this be similar to.. let's say a bridge collapsing? If a bridge collapses and someone or multiple people are killed, can the owner of the engineering company and the civil engineers who designed it be charged with murder?
I don't know if this situation addresses it, but what if there was a mistake on the contractor's end, that isn't as obvious?
Don't get me wrong, it is a tragedy that someone lost their life, but it's not like the owner's goal was to design a slide that would kill someone. Does Schlitterbahn guarantee it's customers their slides are 100% safe?
All of your questions are excellent. Please look at the Kansas City Hyatt Regency Skybridge (walkway) collapse in July 1981. There are numerous youtube videos and summaries online. It is a perfect example of a mistake made by a contractor (that resulted in over 100 deaths).
The details of that collapse seem pretty obvious that there was no reason to pursue murder or even manslaughter. It was a simple mistake, missed by numerous personnel, and many died. Engineering licenses were lost, damages were paid, but no one went to prison (and rightfully so).
ETA... but this Schlitterbahn case is COMPLETELY dissimilar.
This post was edited on 4/4/18 at 12:44 pm
Posted on 4/4/18 at 12:45 pm to Cosmo
quote:
Now its just a money grab for the family
No, Schlitterbahn has already settled with the family.
Posted on 4/4/18 at 12:49 pm to classicgold
quote:
The indictment gives me all of the information I need. The prosecutor is probably going a little overboard on the charges, but it is worth it to try to get these guys the most possible jail time. They deserve it. The absolute neglect that they displayed in designing this slide just so they could be on the Travel Channel is absolutely ridiculous.
It also makes me extremely weary of waterparks in general if a ride like this with zero dynamic engineering performed can be cleared for use.
I read the indictment and I agree. These dudes need to do some hard time. What they did is pretty fricked up.
Posted on 4/4/18 at 1:24 pm to thetigerman
That indictment lays out one of the most damning cases of gross negligence I have ever seen. I hope it's not all true. If it is, the juries (criminal and civil) are going to destroy them. Time to plead out and tender policy limits.
This post was edited on 4/4/18 at 1:25 pm
Posted on 4/4/18 at 1:34 pm to LSUFanHouston
I've twice served as a judge.
I've read the indictment. I know that indictments are completely one-sided affairs.
Nevertheless, there are a lot of tough facts for the defense to counter. Very tough facts. No dynamic engineering. Admissions that they did not know what they were doing when they designed it. Admissions that they rushed through the design and construction stage. They complied with very few ASTM standards. Documented lack of maintenance. Documented repeat problems with Raft B going too fast and going airborne. Documented prior injuries caused by the same problem, going airborne, that killed the boy. The same problem, going airborne, that they admitted occurred during every step of the process. Documented spoliation of evidence. And they have one doozy of an email:
I know that a prosecutor can find an expert who will say whatever he wants them to say, but this looks damning:
I've read the indictment. I know that indictments are completely one-sided affairs.
Nevertheless, there are a lot of tough facts for the defense to counter. Very tough facts. No dynamic engineering. Admissions that they did not know what they were doing when they designed it. Admissions that they rushed through the design and construction stage. They complied with very few ASTM standards. Documented lack of maintenance. Documented repeat problems with Raft B going too fast and going airborne. Documented prior injuries caused by the same problem, going airborne, that killed the boy. The same problem, going airborne, that they admitted occurred during every step of the process. Documented spoliation of evidence. And they have one doozy of an email:
quote:
[Verriickt] could hurt me, it could kill me, it is a seriously dangerous piece of equipment today because there are things that we don't know about it. Every day we learn more.... I've seen what this one has done to the crash dummies and to the boats we sent down it. Ever since the prototype. And we had boats flying in the prototype too. . . . It's complex, it's fast, it's mean. If we mess up, it could be the end. I could die going down this ride.
I know that a prosecutor can find an expert who will say whatever he wants them to say, but this looks damning:
quote:They installed a net with metal bars to stop a problem, going airborne, that should not have existed:
Experts in the amusement park industry rely on the acceptable engineering practice standards issued by ASTM. The ASTM standards are the minimum level of safety for amusement park rides and waterslides everywhere in the United States. ASTM standards have been in existence and available to amusement park designers and operators for over 30 years.
SCHOOLEY signed the operation manual in July of 2014, certifying that Verriickt complied with all ASTM standards.
[E]xperts noted that Verriickt's design violated nearly all aspects of the longstanding industry safety standards published by ASTM. In fact, the design and operation of the Verriickt complied with few, if any, of the industry safety standards.
quote:Defense counsel have a steep hill to climb.
The ride was never properly or fully designed to prevent rafts from going airborne.
The placement of the netting and support hoops above the ride path was obviously defective and ultimately lethal. HENRY, SCHOOLEY, and MILES each had knowledge that rafts were still going airborne in the days before Verriickt's grand opening to the public, meaning the installation of overhead hoops and netting above the ride path was particularly reckless.
The presence of the overhead netting and support hoops speaks volumes about the designers' extreme disregard for the value of human life. ASTM directs that any structure located within the patron clearance envelope meaning the area within which a rider could theoretically touch at any time during the ride-must be carefully scrutinized and any potential for physical contact with an obstruction during the ride must be eliminated. HENRY and SCHOOLEY did the opposite; they installed metal bars directly across the known flight path.
Posted on 4/4/18 at 1:48 pm to Salviati
quote:
I've twice served as a judge.
If everything in here is true... do you think as a judge that these individuals deserve jail time?
If so... who exactly is "at fault" on behalf of the company?
The owners?
The ride designer?
The ops guy?
The lifeguards/ride operators?
The entities (including government) that signed off on the use?
What do you think the appropriate "punishment" should be?
Do you think a plea bargain is an acceptable result?
I just find it difficult thinking anyone deserves jail time here. Shut the company down, liquidate it, give all the proceeds to the dead and injured, bar every person involved from ever being involved in any facility like this again, etc - all are appropriate here.
Posted on 4/4/18 at 1:50 pm to Salviati
You get out of here with that logic. LSUFanHouston knows when he sees prosecutorial overreach.
If twenty percent of what's in that indictment holds out, those guys are probably convicted. That indictment is damning.
If twenty percent of what's in that indictment holds out, those guys are probably convicted. That indictment is damning.
Posted on 4/4/18 at 1:56 pm to LSUFanHouston
quote:
I just find it difficult thinking anyone deserves jail time here. Shut the company down, liquidate it, give all the proceeds to the dead and injured, bar every person involved from ever being involved in any facility like this again, etc - all are appropriate here.
I know you didn't ask me, but let me say this... how well do you know the details of the Kansas City Hyatt Regency SkyBridge collapse in 1981?
No one was held criminally negligent, because it was shown that a contractor mistake was made, and simply missed by the engineering firm.
But suppose a damning memo had been found, where it was pointed out that the box-beam could not support the load, and the re-design was seriously flawed, and a collapse onto people was a distinct possibility.
Had that memo existed, there WOULD be criminal negligence (there were 114 fatalities and scores injured).
Such a memo DOES exist in the Schlitterbahn case!
This post was edited on 4/4/18 at 1:59 pm
Posted on 4/4/18 at 1:57 pm to Salviati
quote:
Defense counsel have a steep hill to climb.
Yeah. That indictment is painful to read, considering all of the design red flags, a growing list of injured riders and a seemingly calculated effort to suppress all information that would have led to the ride being shut down and would have prevented a 10 year old boy from being decapitated.
I went into this story somewhat giving the proprietor the benefit of the doubt considering that all thrill rides have an element of danger (though typically limited to mechanical failure). However, after reading that indictment, it's hard to see a scenario where those guys don't spend a lot of time behind bars.
Posted on 4/4/18 at 2:08 pm to JPinLondon
quote:
Kansas City Hyatt Regency SkyBridge collapse in 1981?
Hadnt heard about it until earlier in this thread, then did a little looking online.
quote:
Had that memo existed, there WOULD be criminal negligence
So then I'll ask you what I asked the other poster... who deserves jail time and how much? Where do you drat the line?
Posted on 4/4/18 at 2:29 pm to LSUFanHouston
quote:
So then I'll ask you what I asked the other poster... who deserves jail time and how much? Where do you drat [sic] the line?
You make a good point. I don't think I know the answer, because my understanding of ALL the facts is still pretty minimal. Based on what I know (or think I know)...
quote:given the facts, almost certainly
The owners?
quote:given the facts, absolutely
The ride designer?
quote:given the facts, including a cover-up and encouraging operators to lie, absolutely
The ops guy?
quote:assuming they dutifully reported aberrations and incidents to the ops guy, then no, they did their job. But probably could have tried a bit harder.. but that is on their conscience, not criminal.
The lifeguards/ride operators?
quote:I just don't know enough to guess on this one... but they were unlikely privy to the damning memo and the numerous serious incidents.
The entities (including government) that signed off on the use?
quote:from the above players, it would vary from 3-7 years to "no charges"
What do you think the appropriate "punishment" should be?
quote:yes, especially down from murder two to negligent homicide or manslaughter
Do you think a plea bargain is an acceptable result?
Posted on 4/4/18 at 2:39 pm to JPinLondon
quote:
yes, especially down from murder two to negligent homicide or manslaughter
If all of the information in the indictment bears out to be true and the defense is unable to explain it away / deny it...
I think negligent homicide (Kansas refers to it as involuntary manslaughter) may be appropriate for some people. But that is as far as I could see it. 2 and a half years, maybe, would be as far as I think reasonable.
Posted on 4/4/18 at 2:40 pm to Tigerlaff
quote:
That indictment lays out one of the most damning cases of gross negligence I have ever seen. I hope it's not all true. If it is, the juries (criminal and civil) are going to destroy them. Time to plead out and tender policy limits.
Texas Monthly
Pretty good read for anybody interested in the facts regarding the indictment. These are pretty terrible facts for the defense tbh.
This post was edited on 4/4/18 at 3:02 pm
Posted on 4/4/18 at 2:44 pm to JPinLondon
quote:
Defense counsel have a steep hill to climb
Only hope for them really is that there was something posted saying a 10 year old shouldn't have been on it...and they let him on because of the dad being a senator...
...but from reading the indictment, it seems like all restrictions had been removed (or covered up so they weren't visible).
Terrible tragedy that obviously could have been avoided.
Posted on 4/4/18 at 2:46 pm to LSUFanHouston
quote:I'm not going to sentence anyone, even hypothetically, until I hear their side of the story. But please allow me to flip the question because the idea of jail time for here seems antithetical to you.quote:If everything in here is true... do you think as a judge that these individuals deserve jail time?
I've twice served as a judge.
If so... who exactly is "at fault" on behalf of the company?
The owners?
The ride designer?
The ops guy?
The lifeguards/ride operators?
The entities (including government) that signed off on the use?
What do you think the appropriate "punishment" should be?
Do you think a plea bargain is an acceptable result?
I just find it difficult thinking anyone deserves jail time here. Shut the company down, liquidate it, give all the proceeds to the dead and injured, bar every person involved from ever being involved in any facility like this again, etc - all are appropriate here.
How far must the facts go before you would see criminality?
No biomechanical engineering?
No dynamic engineering at all?
No engineering at all?
Failure to maintain a safety system?
Design of a defective safety system due to faulty engineering?
Design of a defective safety system due to no engineering?
What level of culpability do you require to find criminal behavior?
Some level of negligence?
Some level or recklessness?
Or does there have be an intentional act for you?
Posted on 4/4/18 at 3:00 pm to TheChosenOne
quote:
This is all an overzealous prosecutor that's probably friends with the kid's politician dad.
This is what happens when the son of a congressman is killed on a slide.
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