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re: New York Times photojournalist goes to Venezuela: pretty incredible pics

Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:05 am to
Posted by reddy tiger
Mandeville
Member since Aug 2012
1553 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:05 am to
quote:

Are you saying socialism is better?


No. Socialism is a failed model. It's ridiculous to advocate for it. However, there is a difference between socialism, which entails public ownership of the means of production, and social democracy.
Given the drivel I read on the OT and Poli board, I'm not surprised. The average poster on this site is depressingly ignorant.
Posted by Barbellthor
Columbia
Member since Aug 2015
8634 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:12 am to
quote:

Venezuala does not have a socialist government. Its more of a marxist dictator.

Marxism leads to socialism. Socialism leads to Communism. Communism leads to death. Go to the Marxist side, you must not. Mmmmmmmmm...


quote:

the politicians you refer too are embracing social democracy, not socialism. Social democracy is more like what Sweden has.

First, Bernie literally has said he supports "democratic socialism." Ask him what the difference between that and socialism is: "Huge." Or, some dribble about eating the rich; top one percent, wealth of the bottom 90 percent, etc. neverminding that our poor are richer and have a better standard of living than the poor in places that have much less income inequality like, oh I don't know...Venezuela.

Second, the Nordic countries have many/largely socialist programs, but their economies are capitalist. Their programs are buttressed by the open markets.

Third, as for your definition of "social democracy," the words "economic and social interventions to promote social justice" say it all. What are "interventions"? Government regulation of the open market? That's fascism. Affirmative action programs? At some point, we will recognize those as simply racist. "Social" justice is a perversion of justice; it is an attempted rectification of perceived wrongs for a group based on groups. It presumes things about groups based on characteristics of the group, namely...race, sexual orientation, or gender. Sounds pretty racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. to me.

People forget or ignore that there are risks to living in a free society, and that in this country you have the right to be a dick. The market will reward accordingly (see the lunch counter protests that worked). The reward of a free society outweighs the risks. Leftists have too little faith in individuals and communities and too much faith in big government. That, or they're just power grabbing leeches. Or both. When you end up having your people literally starve to death in the streets, however, "What difference, at that point, will it make?"
Posted by Antonio Moss
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2006
48301 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:15 am to
quote:

social democracy.
Given the drivel I read on the OT and Poli board, I'm not surprised. The average poster on this site is depressingly ignorant.


So you are in favor of reducing our social benefits per capita, increasing taxes on the lower classes, and deregulating industry across the board?


The problem is that what then left envisions “social democracy” to be in the Scandinavian countries and what their systems of government and economics actually are, are very separate things.

But please continue to throw the term “ignorant” around.
Posted by reddy tiger
Mandeville
Member since Aug 2012
1553 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:20 am to
quote:


So you are in favor of reducing our social benefits per capita, increasing taxes on the lower classes, and deregulating industry across the board? 



Not sure how you came to this conclusion. I'm a capitalist and think our current level of social welfare is sufficient, if not overly burdensome. I can hold that opinion, understand the meaning of words, and recognize how ignorant people are- All at the same time. I can even chew gum while I'm doing it.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
260191 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:25 am to
quote:

Given the drivel I read on the OT and Poli board, I'm not surprised. The average poster on this site is depressingly ignorant.


Yet the post you were agreeing with was wrong.
Posted by reddy tiger
Mandeville
Member since Aug 2012
1553 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:27 am to
quote:

Yet the post you were agreeing with was wrong.


How so? I'd hate to remain ignorant myself.
Posted by mylsuhat
Mandeville, LA
Member since Mar 2008
48937 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:28 am to
quote:

Guess which country has meddled in South America the last 50 years and put all these things in motion.

Even if this is your argument. You agree that the US's involvement in creating the Socalist State of Venezuela was an attempt to destroy their country/economy
This post was edited on 11/30/18 at 9:39 am
Posted by KiwiHead
Auckland, NZ
Member since Jul 2014
27416 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:33 am to
When Maduro can't feed his military consistently, that's when you'll see mass uprsing.
Posted by TOSOV
Member since Jan 2016
8922 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:37 am to
quote:

Third, as for your definition of "social democracy," the words "economic and social interventions to promote social justice" say it all. What are "interventions"? Government regulation of the open market? That's fascism. Affirmative action programs? At some point, we will recognize those as simply racist. "Social" justice is a perversion of justice; it is an attempted rectification of perceived wrongs for a group based on groups. It presumes things about groups based on characteristics of the group, namely...race, sexual orientation, or gender. Sounds pretty racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. to me.


Well I will give it to the lefties that take advantage of putting in nuggets where they can. Ie...Adding LGBT protections into the new USMCA. Not the place for it, and we are getting duped. Same thing many large companies are doing as part of their deal to move to a new city. Toyota did it to the city of plano. Forcing a major left wing anti-Christian belief down the throat of a very Christian county/city. Without having the right to know it as it's hidden. Which is funny how all these things have to be hidden to get thru.
This post was edited on 11/30/18 at 9:40 am
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
260191 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:40 am to

quote:

How so? I'd hate to remain ignorant myself.


It referred to Socialism as a form of government, when it's not. It's an economic system. You can have many types of government with different kinds of economies.
Posted by Antonio Moss
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2006
48301 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:47 am to
quote:

I can hold that opinion


Your opinion is fundamentally incorrect.


quote:

understand the meaning of words



You, apparently, don't.


quote:

and recognize how ignorant people are


That old saying about stones and glass houses.
Posted by reddy tiger
Mandeville
Member since Aug 2012
1553 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:49 am to
quote:

 referred to Socialism as a form of government, when it's not. It's an economic system. You can have many types of government with different kinds of economies


Meh. That's a nitpicky criticism. I think my broader point still stands.
Posted by Antonio Moss
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2006
48301 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:54 am to
quote:

Meh. That's a nitpicky criticism.




Confusing macro systems is hardly "nitpicky"
Posted by reddy tiger
Mandeville
Member since Aug 2012
1553 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:56 am to
quote:

Your opinion is fundamentally incorrect


You disagree that current social welfare policies are sufficient if not overly burdensome? Are you sure you're not a socialist?

The rest of your reply is ignorant drivel. Go study.

Posted by Antonio Moss
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2006
48301 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 9:58 am to
quote:

You disagree that current social welfare policies are sufficient if not overly burdensome?


I never held that as my opinion.


quote:

Are you sure you're not a socialist?


Positive because I actually know what that term entails.

quote:

The rest of your reply is ignorant drivel. Go study.



Posted by reddy tiger
Mandeville
Member since Aug 2012
1553 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 10:06 am to
quote:

socialist


Socialism

This is not hard.
This post was edited on 11/30/18 at 10:08 am
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
260191 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 10:09 am to
quote:


Meh. That's a nitpicky criticism. I think my broader point still stands.


That socialism is an economic system?
Posted by reddy tiger
Mandeville
Member since Aug 2012
1553 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 10:11 am to
quote:

socialism is an economic system


By definition, socialism has to be enforced by government.
This post was edited on 11/30/18 at 10:13 am
Posted by Northshore Saint
Loranger, LA
Member since Feb 2013
1864 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 10:20 am to
quote:

This is what the dems want here. Beware.


That's absolute horseshite. Nobody wants authoritarian dictatorships like Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, etc. Second nobody is advocating for actual socialism. The term has been thrown around loosely by people on the left so much it's basically ignored. What they're asking for is a social democracy. There are some socialist ideas but it doesn't call for abolishing free markets or capitalism.
Posted by Antonio Moss
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2006
48301 posts
Posted on 11/30/18 at 10:26 am to
quote:

By definition, socialism has to be enforced by government.


Correct, as does ever economic system. But a democratic/republic form of government can elect to implement a socialist economic scheme.

This is actually what Marx envisioned.
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