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Started By
Message
re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:40 pm to GOP_Tiger
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:40 pm to GOP_Tiger
1
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:41 pm to Pettifogger
Yep.
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:41 pm to northshorebamaman
quote:
Not saying you're one of them but it's certainly true for most of the Putin Bros ITT today.
Well, he directed it at me.
Which is pretty apropos of my point: That when you're labeling anyone who even slightly questions the wisdom of US foreign policy as "pro-Putin", you need to have a chat with yourself
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:42 pm to StormyMcMan
ISW Update
quote:
Key Takeaways
Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin appears to have launched an armed rebellion on June 23 to force a leadership change within the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) which is unlikely to succeed.
Early reports following Prigozhin’s statements suggest that Russian internal security forces are activating in response to Prigozhin’s statements and possible Wagner moves, primarily in Moscow and Rostov, and the Kremlin appears opposed to Prigozhin’s actions.
Prigozhin set informational conditions for this effort earlier in the day by accusing the Russian MoD and unnamed oligarchs of deceiving Putin and the Russian public in order to launch the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Prigozhin likely intends to truly conduct an armed rebellion against the Russian MoD, rather than expecting Kremlin support to compel MoD leadership changes or only escalating rhetorically.
It is therefore most likely that Prigozhin fully intends for Wagner to move against MoD leadership and forcibly remove them from power, more likely against the Southern Military District command in Rostov-on-Don but possibly also against Moscow.
An armed Wagner attack against the Russian military leadership in Rostov-on-Don would have significant impacts on Russia’s war effort in Ukraine.
Prigozhin’s apparent start of an armed rebellion is the culmination of his campaign to retain control over his military forces, and he likely views the rebellion as an existential survival effort.
Prigozhin’s likely intention was to gain the allegiance of senior Russian officers and military personnel, but he is unlikely to secure sufficient military support considering that Wagner-affiliated Army General Sergei Surovikin denounced Prigozhin’s call for armed rebellion.
Even if the Wagner Group can credibly threaten the MoD, Putin is incredibly unlikely to acquiesce to a successful effort by Prigozhin to topple the MoD.
Ukrainian forces conducted counteroffensive operations on at least two sectors of the front on June 23.
Russian forces conducted another series of missile and drone strikes against Ukraine on June 23, primarily targeting a Ukrainian airfield in Khmelnytskyi Oblast.
Russian forces continued to conduct limited ground attacks in the Kupyansk area, and Russian and Ukrainian forces continued to skirmish south of Kreminna.
Russian forces did not conduct any confirmed ground attacks in the Bakhmut area.
Russian and Ukrainian forces continued limited offensive operations along the Avdiivka-Donetsk City front.
Russian and Ukrainian forces continued ground attacks in the western Donetsk-eastern Zaporizhia Oblast border area.
Ukrainian forces continued counteroffensive operations in western Zaporizhia Oblast.
Russian federal subjects and the Wagner Group continue efforts to conceal the true scale of Russian and Wagner losses in Ukraine.
Ukrainian officials reported that Russian and occupation administrations continue to disregard the lives of Ukrainian civilians in occupied territories.
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:43 pm to Pettifogger
Bro, you are an intelligent dude that has been on a slow drift as you consume more and more political bs/poli board. I’ve seen it happen to plenty of posters over the years. Try to detox a bit.
ETA: I’m not really even talking about this thread. Just something I’ve noticed over the past few months.
ETA: I’m not really even talking about this thread. Just something I’ve noticed over the past few months.
This post was edited on 6/23/23 at 8:50 pm
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:44 pm to Pettifogger
I think you try to toe a neutral line but it does come off as you're supporting the RA. Not saying that you are pro-RA like Stidham and his band of politards but I also think you truly aren't pro Ukraine, either.
I also think that you are buying into the Russian propaganda machine and you are too smart for that
I also think that you are buying into the Russian propaganda machine and you are too smart for that
This post was edited on 6/23/23 at 8:45 pm
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:47 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
conservatism has always meant supporting freedom
Not quite, but in the ballpark. There are times when you don't want to support absolute freedoms-- you don't give Che the means to hang the Bolivian government, for example-- you give them the means to shoot him down like the Communist dog he was.
That said, defending American interests, including supporting the undermining of our geopolitical adversaries and biggest aspirant rivals on the global stage, is right at the top of any Conservative check list.
America gets to completely reset the Russian military at the cost of essentially no American lives, bleed them for a generation from the temptation of expansionist conflict, make the rest of the world that bought up Russian military supplies really regret it when its blown to hell by American military surplus-- oh, and we even get to throw a few new things on to the battlefield as live testing? And at a fraction of a single year's Pentagon budget? C'mon man.
A real Conservative would recognize the value of the entire process here to American interests.
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:48 pm to Pettifogger
I wasn’t throwing shade initially at people who simply wanted America to remain neutral.
There are people who seem to take glee in news of Russian military success though. Some of these people call themselves conservative. I struggle to fully understand it.
There are people who seem to take glee in news of Russian military success though. Some of these people call themselves conservative. I struggle to fully understand it.
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:49 pm to WDE24
quote:
Bro, you are an intelligent dude that has been on a slow drift as you consume more and more political bs/poli board. I’ve seen it happen to plenty of posters over the years. Try to detox a bit.
Thanks man appreciate that very genuine and substantive take
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:53 pm to Pettifogger
Just something to think about when you are less defensive and more introspective. I’m not trying to attack or pile on. No malice or harm intended. Probably should have saved the comment for a different moment. Bad timing on my part. 
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:53 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
No, we really don't want Wagner to win. That's a terrible outcome.
Wagner winning would be a terrible outcome.
quote:
What we want is for Wagner to do just well enough that Russia has to pull large numbers of troops out of Ukraine to defeat him.
Well a complete collapse of the Russian economy and evaporation of Putin's hold over the Russian people would be nice too. That would force Putin to leave Ukraine and focus his energy on staying alive and in power. Which would hopefully make Russia too weak to oppose the addition of Ukraine to NATO and/or give Ukraine enough time to rearm with all NATO standard equipment and training.
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:53 pm to SteelerBravesDawg
quote:
I also think that you are buying into the Russian propaganda machine and you are too smart for that
I have no interest in being neutral. I see no particular merit in it. I consume next to no media on this war. I get most of my updates from this thread.
But yes, I'm probably not truly "pro-Ukraine" in the sense that I unquestioningly support Ukraine's leadership and positions relative to the war. I'd prefer Ukraine "win" in some form or fashion and I naturally think the Ukrainian people have unjustly and disproportionately suffered as a result of this war. Label that whatever you will.
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:54 pm to SteelerBravesDawg
LINK
quote:
We could pass the time by telling old Soviet jokes.
quote:
A man walks into a shop. He asks the clerk, “You don’t have any meat?” The clerk says, “No, here we don’t have any fish. The shop that doesn’t have any meat is across the street.”
quote:
A worker standing in a liquor line says: “I have had enough, save my place, I am going to shoot Gorbachev.” Two hours later he returns to claim his place in line. His friends ask, “Did you get him?” “No, the line there was even longer than the line here.”
quote:
First Soviet official: “Is it possible to build communism in America?”
Second Soviet official: “It's possible, but who will we buy grain from?”
quote:
A guard asked a political prisoner, "What is your term?"
"Ten years."
"What for?"
"For nothing."
"What a lie! For nothing they give only five years."
quote:
A frightened man came to the KGB "My talking parrot disappeared."
"This is not our case. Go to the criminal police."
"Excuse me. Of course I know that I have to go to them. I am here just to tell you officially that I disagree with that parrot."
quote:
Stalin summoned an aide and said, "I know you spread jokes about me. It's impertinent."
Aide:: "Why?"
Stalin: "I am the Great Leader, Teacher, and Friend of the people after all."
Aide: "I swear, I have never told anybody this joke."
quote:
“What is the difference between Russian and English fairy tales?” English fairy tales start with "Once upon a time…" and Russian ones with "It will be soon…"
quote:
A man on the Red Square shouts, “Putin is an idiot!” He gets sentenced to 15 years: five years for insulting the nation's leader, and 10 years for revealing a state secret.
quote:
A Russian arrives at the Polish border:
“Nationality?”
“Russian.”
“Occupation?”
“No, no, just visiting.”
quote:
A store in Moscow runs out of bread. A man standing in line begins ranting, cursing the Soviet state and its leaders. A policeman takes him aside: "Comrade, you must be careful with that talk. Even a few years ago, you would have been shot for saying this."
When he returns home, he tells his wife "Things are very bad out there." "Out of bread again?" she asks. "Worse, they're out of bullets."
quote:
A judge comes out of a Soviet courtroom laughing. - "Why are you laughing?" a colleague asks.
"I've just heard a very funny joke."
"Tell me it."
"I can't, I just gave a 10-year sentence for it."
quote:
A woman walked down a Moscow sidewalk with a bag full of toilet paper rolls.
A passerby was shocked. “Excuse me, comrade, where did you buy all that toilet paper?”
“Buy? Are you crazy? These are 5 years old. I’m bringing them back from the cleaners.”
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:54 pm to WDE24
quote:
that has been on a slow drift as you consume more and more political bs/poli board. I’ve seen it happen to plenty of posters over the years. Try to detox a bit.
frick it’s happened to me, not proud to admit it. I don’t think there is anyone who is truly immune to being swayed at least a little to any particular opinion if you only listen to people sympathetic to that opinion.
Not saying that’s happened to you Pettifogger, just wanted to comment that’s absolutely a thing that can happen and I personally try to check myself regularly.
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:55 pm to Pettifogger
Fair enough.
Like someone else said above, you're a smart, well-read guy, might be time to take a break for a bit.
Like someone else said above, you're a smart, well-read guy, might be time to take a break for a bit.
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:55 pm to WDE24
quote:
Just something to think about when you are less defensive and more introspective. I’m not trying to attack or pile on. No malice or harm intended. Probably should have saved the comment for a different moment. Bad timing on my part.
Goodness. Feel free to attack or pile on, I'd much prefer that to passive aggressive concern trolling.
Posted on 6/23/23 at 8:57 pm to Ross
quote:agree…I certainly have been a victim
don’t think there is anyone who is truly immune
Posted on 6/23/23 at 9:03 pm to Pettifogger
quote:Pretty sincere and direct observation. Again, detox may help if you confuse it for trolling. Everything isn’t an internet debate tactic.
passive aggressive concern trolling.
This post was edited on 6/23/23 at 9:05 pm
Posted on 6/23/23 at 9:04 pm to StormyMcMan
From ISW:
Right. I had forgotten that Rostov, even in peacetime, was the HQ for the Southern Military District.
quote:
#Rostov-on-Don houses both the headquarters of the SMD, whose 58th Combined Arms Army is currently decisively engaged in defensive operations against Ukrainian counteroffensives in southern #Ukraine.
Right. I had forgotten that Rostov, even in peacetime, was the HQ for the Southern Military District.
Posted on 6/23/23 at 9:05 pm to SteelerBravesDawg
quote:
Like someone else said above, you're a smart, well-read guy, might be time to take a break for a bit.
From what? Also, gentlemen, we've all been at this for what 2-3 pages, and I've yet to see anyone provide any substantive retort to my stance on this conflict.
Because I think the reality is that most of you don't even disagree with it in a vacuum. You're just engaging in this bizarre series of knee jerk reactions to anyone who expresses doubt or isn't enthusiastic about America's role in the war. And I think it might be a good idea to think about why you have such a visceral reaction to that.
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