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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 5/19/23 at 9:50 am to PhilipMarlowe
Posted on 5/19/23 at 9:50 am to PhilipMarlowe
quote:
n what ways will it [F-16s] change the current state of things? What will it allow them to do that they are incapable of doing atm
As was said above air defense and AIM-120 missiles, and “fire and forget” capability.
Also with the current stalemate they can help stop Russian fighters/bombers from coming close to the frontlines and lobbing glide-bombs, missiles, etc. A few days ago there was speculation that the Polish gifted Mig-29s had been upgraded to be able to fire NATO AIM-120 air-to-air missiles. Now we think it may have been a Patriot battery that shot down the Russian Su-34, Su-35 fighters and the Mi-8 choppers in the Bryansk region of Russia? Longer range air-to-air missiles and longer range radar systems are exactly what the F-16 will bring.
Ukraine’s MiG-29s and Su-24s and 27s are old and outmatched by Russia’s newer fighters. Russia is flying patrols in each sector and Ukr pilots are getting shot down because they can’t see (radar) or shoot as far as the newer Russian fighters. With F-16s they will be able to see farther, shoot farther, and then fire-and-forget, to get the hell out of there before ground defense or air-to-air missiles get them.
The Mig-29 and other other Soviet planes can’t “talk” to NATO missiles with the datalink. That means that they can’t fire them or help guide with their radar (what we were hoping Polish upgrades may have helped with). F-16s change that.
F-16s would flip the advantage right now. The F-16s could shoot Russian fighters down before they can see them or shoot back (depending on how much better our tech is than theirs and on upgrades/newer F-16s vs what we’re up against).
The Ukrainians also want F-16 air defense and ground support when they do their big counteroffensive. Russia has a huge Air Force and could use it to wipe out a ground offensive (blowing up all Ukraine’s new Leopard 2s, etc.). The Russians may be willing to risk getting some planes shot down to stop a big counteroffensive, but if Ukraine has a fleet of 40 F-16s loaded with AIM-120s, they may not risk a huge air attack.
This post was edited on 5/19/23 at 10:06 am
0
Posted on 5/19/23 at 9:52 am to CitizenK
Ah, spring -- that wonderful time of the year when Russian SPG barrels imitate the flowers who open up their blooms and remind us of God's glory.
From this Russian Telegram channel, which says:
quote:
There are not so many really unshakable postulates in the world.
And one of them says - shite happens.
Posted on 5/19/23 at 10:14 am to GOP_Tiger
Posted on 5/19/23 at 10:17 am to Obtuse1
Posted on 5/19/23 at 10:20 am to GOP_Tiger
Biden approves F-16 training efforts:
AP:
quote:
HIROSHIMA, Japan (AP) — President Joe Biden on Friday endorsed plans to train Ukrainian pilots on U.S.-made F-16 fighter jets, according to two people familiar with the matter, as he huddled with leaders of the world’s most powerful democracies on plans to toughen punishments on Russia for its 15-month invasion of Ukraine.
The Group of Seven leaders were convening in Hiroshima, where President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is to join them on on Sunday in his farthest trip from his country since the war began in February of last year.
The leaders heard for the first time of Biden’s backing of training Ukrainian pilots on advanced fighter jets, as a precursor to sending the jets to Ukraine.
The G7 leaders also set out new sanctions on Moscow as well as plans to enhance the effectiveness of existing financial penalties meant to constrain President Vladimir Putin’s war effort.
quote:
The F-16 training is to be conducted in Europe and will likely begin in the coming weeks. But Biden told the leaders that decisions on when, how many, and who will provide the fourth-generation fighter jets for Ukraine to use in battle will be made in the months ahead while the training is underway.
That’s according to the people who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss Biden’s private conversations with allies.
Zelenskyy has consistently called for the supply of Western fighter jets to bolster his country’s defenses against Russia’s invasion, but has until now faced skepticism from the U.S. that they would turn the tide in the war. Now, as Ukraine has bolstered its air defenses with a host of Western-supplied anti-aircraft systems, officials believe the jets could become useful in the battle and essential to the country’s long-term security.
Posted on 5/19/23 at 11:04 am to GOP_Tiger
Posted on 5/19/23 at 11:08 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Biden approves F-16 training efforts:
How stupid.
No one is giving Ukraine enough F-16s to make a difference in this conflict, and they don't have the pilots regardless.
Fast forward to the obvious conclusion---NATO 'volunteer' pilots flying Polish F-16s to kill Russians. That will go just swimmingly.
Posted on 5/19/23 at 11:13 am to Indefatigable
quote:
No one is giving Ukraine enough F-16s to make a difference in this conflict
Maybe. How many would it take to make a difference?
Posted on 5/19/23 at 11:17 am to TBoy
quote:
How many would it take to make a difference?
Hundreds most likely, to do anything at all that matters. They are going to lose a bunch of them to Russian air defenses and the Russian Air Force. A dozen F-16's will be as useless as giving them a couple dozen Abrams tanks. Its virtue signaling
Poland has like 40 of them to offload.
That's without acknowledging that Ukraine has zero infrastructure or support for the F16. And Moscow will know exactly where they are based and flying from.
This post was edited on 5/19/23 at 11:20 am
Posted on 5/19/23 at 11:26 am to Indefatigable
Both side have be reluctant to send air power close to the front. Ones that do are are shoot, run and pray
Any f-16s Ukraine would get would be stand off attack and defense role for the most part. This would not be high risk. The main push is they can carry NATO munitions. Fire and forget air to air, guided bombs/missiles and anti radiation missiles.
These would make a difference. How big not sure but HIMARS made a huge difference when introduced. If Ukraine can force Russian bombers to launch cruise missile from grater range it more time to track and intercept.
Any f-16s Ukraine would get would be stand off attack and defense role for the most part. This would not be high risk. The main push is they can carry NATO munitions. Fire and forget air to air, guided bombs/missiles and anti radiation missiles.
These would make a difference. How big not sure but HIMARS made a huge difference when introduced. If Ukraine can force Russian bombers to launch cruise missile from grater range it more time to track and intercept.
Posted on 5/19/23 at 11:34 am to Indefatigable
quote:i appreciate that yall push this at every single announcement of aid even though its proven wrong time and time again
Fast forward to the obvious conclusion---NATO 'volunteer' pilots flying Polish F-16s to kill Russians. That will go just swimmingly.
Posted on 5/19/23 at 12:20 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
Hundreds most likely, to do anything at all that matters. They are going to lose a bunch of them to Russian air defenses and the Russian Air Force. A dozen F-16's will be as useless as giving them a couple dozen Abrams tanks. Its virtue signaling
Posted on 5/19/23 at 12:23 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
Indefatigable
quote:
How stupid.
Posted on 5/19/23 at 12:23 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
A dozen F-16's will be as useless as giving them a couple dozen Abrams tanks. Its virtue signaling
On a scale of virtue signaling to game changing, where do you slot in the couple dozen HIMARs we gave Ukraine.
Posted on 5/19/23 at 12:24 pm to TBoy
quote:
Maybe. How many would it take to make a difference?
Ukraine needs about 50, so that's what they will likely get.
But they won't be gamechangers. Ukraine needs them, but they probably need another hundred Bradleys more than they need F-16s.
Posted on 5/19/23 at 12:37 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
The Group of Seven leaders were convening in Hiroshima
If I may channel my inner OMLandshark for just a second, that is quite the setting for leaders to convene and commit ever more weapons for a war against the largest collection of questionably functional nuclear weapons in the world.
On the other hand when US patriot systems are knocking Russian planes out of the sky in Russia, I don’t think there are any more redlines left to trip over so let er rip, Chaps.
Posted on 5/19/23 at 12:56 pm to TBoy
In reality to make a sizable difference you’d want to be able to 5 Ukrainian fighter squadrons. A Ukrainian fighter squadron is 12 aircraft so that’s 60 f-16s. They won’t get that many but I can very easily see them getting 3 squadrons or 36 f-16s which would still be a big deterrence to Russia. And fir the idiot that made the comment that western pilots flying f-16s against Russian pilots wouldn’t go well proves their absolute idiocy. Western pilots are trained more and have a better quality of training. Sure the Russians can look nice flying cute formations for military parades to make a Putin happy but Russian pilots are far out passed by their western counterparts and they know it too.
Posted on 5/19/23 at 12:57 pm to WestCoastAg
quote:
i appreciate that yall push this at every single announcement of aid even though its proven wrong time and time again
Ukraine doesn't have a meaningful number of trained fighter pilots. There will absolutely be "volunteers" in some of these cockpits if Poland actually ends up turning their F16s over.
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