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Posted on 4/23/23 at 2:27 pm to Troutforbreakfast
quote:
Is a peaceful solution to set boundaries an option?
It could possibly happen in the next year or so if Ukraine can make a push and out Russia into a situation where they see they can’t really win.
Russia may decide to try for negotiations to end this horrible conflict.
Posted on 4/23/23 at 2:28 pm to Troutforbreakfast
quote:
Is a peaceful solution to set boundaries an option?
Neither side is interested in a peace deal. Both believe they can improve their position on an eventual deal on the battle field.
Russia wants to keep what they have captured and the remaining territory of the 4 oblasts that they haven’t captured yet. They also want a Russian puppet running (just like Belarus.). This would mean the end of ukraine as a sovereign nation. Ukraine will not accept this
Ukraine wants a return to 2014 borders. Russia will not give up what that have occupied, especially crimea
So for a peace deal to be more palatable to both sides. Something on the battle filed needs to give. Or a total stalemate with high loss of life.
Best way for the is the end will fewest loss of life is ukraine succeed like they did last year in Kharkiv and Kherson. And Russia pulling back.
Posted on 4/23/23 at 2:34 pm to Tigris
quote:
It will be German investment that rebuilds Ukraine, as was done in Romania after the fall of the Soviet Union.
I'll believe it when I see it. LINK
quote:
Pete Buttigieg, the US transportation secretary, said there was plenty of political will at home and internationally towards cooperating in long-term reconstruction efforts including to buttress existing infrastructure in Ukraine.
“With the memory of the Marshall plan in mind, what we’re talking about is not only about how we fund immediate needs and support their ability to maintain the war effort, but how we support the ability of Ukraine to be economically viable and generate a sustainable future for themselves, even as they’re under attack,” the former presidential candidate said in an interview with the Guardian.
Posted on 4/23/23 at 3:27 pm to BlackPawnMartyr
quote:
Everyone knew that some companies would profit tremendously at the expense of tax payer paid for war. The fact that you thought this was something that helped your cause shows a tremendous lack of intellect.
It's Def cheaper for the captains of industry to get the tax payer to foot the bill in both dollars and blood in these forever wars of conquest.
It turns out that we invaded Ukraine for the oil, folks.
Posted on 4/23/23 at 3:36 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
It turns out that we invaded Ukraine for the oil, folks.
If you don’t think this is exactly what Eisenhower warned the country about you are delusional.
Posted on 4/23/23 at 3:38 pm to GOP_Tiger
New weapons donations for Ukraine:
Oryx:
LINK
@NOELreports:
LINK
These 12 tanks are not part of the 90 Czech tanks that the US and the Netherlands are paying to be highly upgraded and sent to Ukraine -- they are a separate Czech donation.
Oryx:
quote:
- 16 105mm M101 Howitzers [Slovenia] (2022)
- 200 Zastava M55 and Zastava M75 AA Guns [Slovenia] (October 2022)
LINK
quote:Most of the money is for fuel.
OTTAWA, April 21 (Reuters) - The Canadian government on Friday announced C$39 million ($28.9 million) in new military assistance for Ukraine that will include 40 sniper rifles, 16 radio sets and a donation to a NATO fund to help Kyiv in its war against Russia.
The latest round of Canadian aid, which also includes ammunition for the rifles, was announced by Defence Minister Anita Anand at the Ramstein Air Base in Germany
@NOELreports:
quote:
Portugal confirmed it will transfer two more M577 command and staff vehicles and three M113 APCs to Ukraine.
LINK
quote:
The Czech Republic continues to send military equipment to help the attacked Ukraine. According to Czech Television, twelve more T-72 tanks left last week. However, the Ministry of Defense and the army do not comment on the deliveries.
Last week, one of the largest transports with Czech aid since the beginning of the war passed through Svinovské nádraží. According to earlier pictures, there were T-72M1 tanks in twelve wagons with blue tarpaulins. They went from the army warehouse to Ukraine.
The Ministry of Defense did not want to comment on the transport. "For security reasons, we do not specify specific aid to Ukraine and do not comment," said Daniel Jareš, spokesman for the ministry.
These 12 tanks are not part of the 90 Czech tanks that the US and the Netherlands are paying to be highly upgraded and sent to Ukraine -- they are a separate Czech donation.
This post was edited on 4/23/23 at 3:42 pm
Posted on 4/23/23 at 3:40 pm to Tigris
quote:
It will be German investment that rebuilds Ukraine, as was done in Romania after the fall of the Soviet Union.
The EU has already promised funds. IMO the German economy is in no shape to fund this. Their banks are on shaky ground and have been for several years. Chemical industry in Germany wasn't in great shape before 2020, and far worse now. Their steel mills were closing right and left 20 years ago, including a few brand new ones. Chinese steel was far less expensive. There were auctions of equipment from them almost every week
Posted on 4/23/23 at 3:44 pm to Philzilla
quote:
If you don’t think this is exactly what Eisenhower warned the country about you are delusional.
In full context that is not what he warned of. What he warned of is the advances in technology were in the private sector, and that the private sector would dictate what weapons would be produced. In the past it was all from military designed armament.
Posted on 4/23/23 at 3:50 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Their Marshall Plan will be incredible.
Yeah the original Marshall Plan was a complete failure for American economic and military interests
Posted on 4/23/23 at 4:35 pm to Troutforbreakfast
quote:
Where does the board conscience lay now a year into this quagmire of death and desolation?
Is a peaceful solution to set boundaries an option?
A brief summary of what the majority of the board have stated in one way or another as I have read it over the moral aspects of the war aside from a smaller contingent of good faith objectors, I generally ignore the bad faith trolls.
Was Russia morally right to invade Ukraine under the guise of liberative reasons, none of which bear up to scrutiny?: No
Is Ukraine therefore morally justified in resisting Russia in their invasion?: Yes
Is the West morally obligated to aid Ukraine in resisting Russian aggression?: Yes, though this has seen far more nuances in opinion as it is a more faceted discussion.
As for a peaceful solution being an option: I have seen few if any here argue for continued armed conflict and most would like to see hostilities ended sooner rather than later. That aside, there is recognition that so far neither side has expressed a solid desire for a peaceful settlement beyond ones they know the other side would not accept at this point. Political posturing by third parties aside it is up to the belligerents to end things one way or another and neither has lost enough will or (re)gained enough strategically to be in a position to accept or dictate peace terms.
Edit: Clarity
This post was edited on 4/23/23 at 4:45 pm
Posted on 4/23/23 at 5:49 pm to OutsideObserver
@RusEmbUSA real mad:
quote:
The United States' decision not to issue visas to Russian journalists in time to participate in the work of the UN Security Council are in stark contrast with its pledges to protect freedom of speech.
We won’t forget, we will not forgive this.
Posted on 4/23/23 at 5:54 pm to GOP_Tiger
That's rich coming from a country that just imprisons forgein journalists.
Posted on 4/23/23 at 6:11 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
The United States' decision not to issue visas to Russian journalists in time to participate in the work of the UN Security Council are in stark contrast with its pledges to protect freedom of speech.
We won’t forget, we will not forgive this.
They imprison ours so
Posted on 4/23/23 at 6:12 pm to DabosDynasty
quote:
They imprison ours so
To be fair, we're about to start imprisoning ours too
Posted on 4/23/23 at 6:32 pm to CitizenK
quote:quote:
It will be German investment that rebuilds Ukraine, as was done in Romania after the fall of the Soviet Union.
The EU has already promised funds. IMO the German economy is in no shape to fund this. Their banks are on shaky ground and have been for several years. Chemical industry in Germany wasn't in great shape before 2020, and far worse now. Their steel mills were closing right and left 20 years ago, including a few brand new ones. Chinese steel was far less expensive. There were auctions of equipment from them almost every week
My assumption is based on what I saw in Romania around 7 years ago. We were looking at relocating a Russian built chemical plant that was shut down due to lack of natural gas. What struck me was all the big box stores and gigantic gas stations. And they were all German owned. The cab driver made some comments about how Merkel was behind it all, and it was all based on corruption. Hell, the guy we thought about buying the plant from was corrupt too. I worked for a German company for a few years and know that they are not above paying bribes. German heavy industry probably won't be all that interested in Ukraine but their consumer sector business will be very interested.
And on Chinese steel - cheap, yes. But the company I work for won't buy it because the quality control is crap, and because our customers don't want it. We bought most of our steel from Ukraine. So I wouldn't write off heavy industry investment.
Posted on 4/23/23 at 6:35 pm to Tigris
quote:
We bought most of our steel from Ukraine. So I wouldn't write off heavy industry investment.
Yea but probably was actually from Donbas so remains to be seen whether that will be Ukraine in the future.
Posted on 4/23/23 at 6:38 pm to TigerFanatic99
quote:
Anyone who doesn't believe that American Taxpayers are about to spend the next twenty years nation building the frick outta Ukraine hasn't been paying attention.
quote:
Ukrainian Deputy Foreign Minister Andrey Melnik tweeted that Western nations need to do more. "We are thankful to our allies for their military help. But: it is not enough," Melnik tweeted Saturday. He said, "Ukraine needs 10 times more to finish Russian aggression this year." The official called on Western partners "to cross all artificial red lines & devote 1% of GDP for ????weapons deliveries."
We have to get to the rebuilding part first.
We haven't even reached half of that yet...Germany, France and the others...not even close.
Posted on 4/23/23 at 7:04 pm to canes is too salty
quote:
Yea but probably was actually from Donbas so remains to be seen whether that will be Ukraine in the future.
Fair enough, the Avozstal plant in Mariupol. So the end game of the war is important for investment in industry. And it probably depends on the development of gas and oil reserves in Ukraine simultaneously (or at least a pipeline connection to the middle east or one of the Stans).
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