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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Posted on 3/17/23 at 1:15 pm to
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
299716 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 1:15 pm to
quote:


There are other choices.


Sure. But right now we are at war with Russia using Ukrainian men. Didnt have to be that way.

You could easily volunteer. Ukraine is running out of bodies on our dime.

They'll need bodies more than anything else soon enough. Hopefully you baws get your chance to kill some Russians.
This post was edited on 3/17/23 at 1:16 pm
Posted by IAmNERD
Member since May 2017
24338 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 1:27 pm to
quote:

I define win by being left alone living in peace.

Besting Russia and pushing them back isn’t winning if Russia rebuilds only to come back again and again.

I gotcha. And in a perfect world, you're right. It's probably the ideal situation, but probably not in our future reality?

But, in our flawed world, I'd imagine Ukraine is probably good with pushing them back to pre 2014 borders and maybe even cedes some of the eastern Donbas region and maybe Crimea as lost to Russia. Or maybe they push them all they way out of the Donbas and just cede Crimea. Or maybe do neither and get wholly engulfed by Russia. Then What? Is Russia going to be mad that NATO countries are even closer after their expansion and try to keep going? Who knows if Russia will even be able to sustain itself without a lot of foreign aid and intervention and they do get pushed back and there's another revolution as we've seen a couple times after failed military ventures over there? There are so many ways this thing can go

But winning, for now, means pushing Russia back to it's borders (even losing a little territory), strengthening their sovereignty and relationships with security partners around the globe to try and prepare for the likely event they will have to beat Russia back again in the future. But right now, it's like the NCAA Tournament with a twist: Survive and advance...or die.
This post was edited on 3/17/23 at 1:28 pm
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42746 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 2:17 pm to
quote:

They were already at war with England anyways though. A bit of a difference.


Yes, not exactly the same; but by helping us they did divert valuable resources away from other vital areas.
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42746 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 2:24 pm to
quote:

Sure. But right now we are at war with Russia using Ukrainian men. Didnt have to be that way.


No doubt, wdd Ed could have watched as we did in 2014 and not honor our pledge to help protect Ukraine’s sovereignty.

quote:

You could easily volunteer. Ukraine is running out of bodies on our dime.


That is just stupid. I went Ukraine to win so I have to go fight? I want LSU to beat Bama so I should do what? Suit up. You can pull for one side over another without participating.

quote:

They'll need bodies more than anything else soon enough. Hopefully you baws get your chance to kill some Russians.


Tell Russia to go home, tell them to give it up, and that will save Russian lives. I’m all for that. Unfortunately fir Russia you value their lives way more than Putin does. He uses them for cannon fodder.
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42746 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 2:25 pm to
I don’t disagree, well said
Posted by LSUPilot07
Member since Feb 2022
8657 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 2:36 pm to
The best way for this to end and never to happen again would be for Ukraine to have a successful spring offensive putting them in a solid position to negotiate a peace where Russia leaves Ukraine but ends up keeping Crimea. I don’t see a way for Ukraine to regain Crimea so that’s a sunk cost at this point. What keeps Russia from ever trying to pull this again will also be the biggest sticking point to Putin and that is for Ukraine to ultimately join NATO. Easier said than done since Putin relates Ukraine joining NATO as an attack on Russia when in reality it is to prevent Russia from attacking Ukraine when it has restocked it’s military.
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
21019 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 2:39 pm to
quote:

Not all 13 of those Slovak Migs are airworthy though. Some are being sent to scavenge parts for their existing fleet. Same with Poland although the majority of the Polish fighters will be ready to fly.


Out of the 13 that Slovakia is sending, 3 of them don't have engines and are strictly for parts. Besides using JDAMs, more airframes in the air also helps with air defense.
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
21019 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 3:02 pm to
Reporter for The Guardian:

quote:

Russia is sustaining "1200, 1300 even 1500" casualties a day in its current offensive, mostly in Bakhmut. Killed to wounded ratio is one to three - senior Nato official, speaking on condition of anonymity.
quote:

Ukraine is taking "an order of magnitude less" - no figure given - in fighting where "several thousand" shells a day have been consumed on both sides
quote:

Unclear how long the battle for Bakhmut will continue. Front line in the city runs along the river which has become a "killing zone". Grim, intense fighting although signs shelling slightly abating
quote:

Ukraine ammunition expenditure currently running ahead of western production, official concedes, but no sign of defenders losing the city. However, there is a defensible ring of hills to the west that Ukraine army can retreat to if needed
quote:

On China - still no sign of Beijing supplying lethal aid to Moscow - but the senior Nato official warns it has not been taken off the table either. Intense western focus on this, not surprisingly
quote:

Ukraine counter offensive may or may not come relatively quickly. Russians fear an attack south from Zaporizhzhia or in northern Luhansk. First half of the year critical for Ukraine to train and build capability, official adds
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 3:28 pm to
quote:

Russia is sustaining "1200, 1300 even 1500" casualties a day in its current offensive, mostly in Bakhmut. Killed to wounded ratio is one to three - senior Nato official, speaking on condition of anonymity.quote:Ukraine is taking "an order of magnitude less" - no figure given


Must be nice to make intelligence estimates and not even try to give figures. They don’t know.

quote:

Ukraine counter offensive may or may not come relatively quickly.

No shite Sherlock
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 3:30 pm to
quote:

Out of the 13 that Slovakia is sending, 3 of them don't have engines and are strictly for parts. Besides using JDAMs, more airframes in the air also helps with air defense.


Neither side is doing much flying over enemy territory right now.
Posted by TigerFanatic99
South Bend, Indiana
Member since Jan 2007
36209 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 3:39 pm to
quote:

Ukraine counter offensive may or may not come relatively quickly


I may or may not have sex tonight.
Posted by CitizenK
BR
Member since Aug 2019
16084 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 3:47 pm to
quote:

Here’s the thing. And I say this as a neutral observer to this whole war. Ukraine needs a settled peace soon. They are staking everything on this anticipated Spring Offensive. They really need to achieve a victory on the scale that would push Russia to accepting a settled peace. If Russia can withstand the coming offensive, the long term prospects for Ukraine are not good. They need this war to end soon.


IMO, Ukraine wants more but can do a little better than 2014 lines.

Russia has so attrited itself and definitely screwed its economy, it will be a generation before it can field a fully manned and fully equipped with modern arms army.

There is NO WAY that Russia can regain the natural gas sales lost anytime soon, or even within 10 years at best hope with pipelines to China AND India (the only gap low enough is through the Kabul area. The one thing that could happen is Germany allowing Nordstream to be repaired, and yes that can be done but at a cost. Time & equipment to do this is costly but cheaper than letting it just sit there. The same goes for crude oil and refined product sales. China and India will continue to benefit from below market prices by a lot on crude oil.

The real game changer to all but make Russia a real backwater would be for France and Germany to allow the formations at their border to be tapped for its natural gas. I'm sorry but this "green" hydrogen scam is going to cost serious money to actually do. It will replace maybe 15% of natural gas in pipelines, per the owner of an EPC firm which has done a few demonstration projects in the USA. European petrochemicals have already been shifting to the USA (mostly TX and LA) for a decade now. Even without onerous regs, cost to refine crude oil in Europe is above that of the USA WITH onerous regs.
Posted by ned nederlander
Member since Dec 2012
5987 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 4:11 pm to
quote:

Here’s the thing. And I say this as a neutral observer to this whole war. Ukraine needs a settled peace soon. They are staking everything on this anticipated Spring Offensive. They really need to achieve a victory on the scale that would push Russia to accepting a settled peace. If Russia can withstand the coming offensive, the long term prospects for Ukraine are not good. They need this war to end soon.


I posted a link to the Stephen Kotkin interview where he talks about how the war ends, and on balance I think he agrees with you.

This war is not going to be once conclusively on the battlefield. It will turn into a conflict of stamina and attrition until there is some negotiated settlement, or series of settlements.

What is kind of interesting to think about in that scenario is which side’s system of government is more equipped to maintain its stamina in this dispute. In that regard Russia may be better suited given the west’s regular transfers of power - until all at once transfer of power becomes Russia’s biggest vulnerability.
Posted by klrstix
Shreveport, LA
Member since Oct 2006
3588 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 4:15 pm to
quote:

They really need to achieve a victory on the scale that would push Russia to accepting a settled peace.


Agreed and I am not sure Ukraine has the resources to achieve this. Maybe, Ukraine creates a static defensive line where Putin ceases active offensive ops.. (for a while) ... but I do not believe (and I would be thrilled to be wrong on this..) the type of "victory" that would be necessary for Putin to come to a negotiation is in the cards at the moment...
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
105462 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 4:16 pm to
Putin will be gone before the next change of government in the US or most of Europe. He may not be immediately terminal but he has some obviously significant health problems. Not to mention going around on an armored train because flying is too risky.
Posted by Breauxsif
Member since May 2012
22771 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 4:23 pm to
You think Shoigu replaces Putin?
Posted by Lakeboy7
New Orleans
Member since Jul 2011
28324 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 4:27 pm to
quote:


I question whether or not te hey have the fuel, men and ammunition to conduct a large scale offensive.


Well shite, no spring/summer offensive. Thats disappointing.
Posted by Play_Neck
Member since Dec 2014
2284 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 4:29 pm to
quote:

You think Shoigu replaces Putin?


I hope not
Posted by OutsideObserver
Oceania.
Member since Dec 2022
784 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 4:47 pm to
quote:

That was a pretty fascinating point about the "two armies" in the UAF that I hadn't thought about before. But it makes complete sense like you said with old reservists that came up under the old Soviet way and all these new units that formed after Crimea and after current invasion started are definitely more western.


Interesting article in the Economist - Ukraine must shed Soviet military legacy. that talks about the same issue. It is behind a registration wall and Wayback wouldn't archive it so I have quoted the article.

quote:

A culture war is brewing within Ukraine’s armed forces. It is being waged between top-down Soviet military thinking on the one hand, and bottom-up Western military culture on the other. This intellectual tussle is hindering Ukraine’s adaptation and learning. It is also hurting Ukraine’s performance in the war against Russia. This is one of my main lessons from a recent research trip to Kyiv and the frontlines of eastern Ukraine, which I conducted alongside some of the leading Western military experts on Russia.

This culture war is largely about leadership. Some army officers have embraced the Western philosophy of “mission command,” which grants commanders on the spot, regardless of rank, the freedom to execute their missions according to their own best judgment. This approach emphasises bottom-up initiative to exploit opportunities on the battlefield. But a large number of Ukrainian officers, including far too many in the most senior ranks, curtail such initiative in favour of rigid operational orders often issued by headquarters far from the frontline.

Many Western observers of Russia’s war of aggression in Ukraine have been partially blind to these internal tensions in Ukraine’s army. This is in part because of Ukrainians’ ingenuity in adapting commercial and advanced military technologies to help fight off Russia’s invasion over the past 13 months. Most of these adaptations have come from the bottom up. One example is the integration of indigenously developed battle-management systems, such as Kropyva, with Starlink satellite internet and commercial drones to help Ukrainian artillery crews identify targets. This has enabled a rudimentary form of combined-arms warfare: in which different combat branches, like infantry, artillery and air power, support one another.

This narrative of technology and innovation feeds into a larger story that Westerners tell themselves about the Ukrainian army’s supposed transformation from a rigid, hierarchical Soviet-legacy force to an adaptable and effective nato-style military. Ukraine cultivates this narrative with information operations, such as carefully-edited videos made for social media that show improvised platforms, such as quadcopters carrying grenades, destroying Russian tanks.

The truth is that part of Ukraine’s armed forces, in particular the ground forces, risk backsliding to their old and inflexible ways. One reason is the large number of casualties incurred among nato-trained Ukrainian soldiers in the first months of the war, and the consequent mobilisation of a large number of retired Ukrainian officers steeped in rigid Soviet military thinking. But that is only part of the explanation. In fact, Soviet influences have always been more prevalent than many observers have realised. As one officer of a mechanised brigade told me: “It’s not enough to pass some nato course to change someone’s mentality who spent years in the Soviet-like system.”

It is tempting to say that this is merely an issue between younger and more senior officers, and thus different levels of command. In fact, old-style thinking appears to permeate all ranks. Many Ukrainian officers still have a natural tendency for “stovepiping”, or adhering to a rigid command structure that hinders communication and co-operation with others in the armed forces. Most Ukrainian operations are therefore still sequential rather than joint. That is, they follow a rigid timetable in which isolated actions—an artillery barrage here, an infantry assault there—take place one after the other, rather than simultaneously, as recommended by modern combined-arms tactics.

Look at Ukraine’s continued reliance on mass artillery fire. Despite Ukraine’s serious shortage of shells, my field research suggests that the country has not substantially decreased its artillery consumption in months. If junior officers had the authority to exploit opportunities as they arose, mounting co-ordinated attacks from infantry and armoured vehicles, supported by short but pinpoint barrages of precision-guided artillery, this would drastically reduce the number of shells needed.

The ongoing culture war in the Ukrainian armed forces makes it harder to distribute new technology evenly across the force. “The problem is not the technology, it is the culture,” I was told by one official from Aerorozvidka, an ngo founded by volunteer experts that has co-developed battle-management software and nimble r18 drones for the Ukrainian armed forces. Individual units use a range of different apps to conduct their operations. This hampers co-ordination between units, and reinforces the old Soviet habit of distinct orders flowing separately to different units. “This is essentially two Soviet militaries fighting one another”, lamented the official.

Ironically, some technology has even reinforced Soviet culture. For example, networked battle-management systems, which provide a real-time picture of the battlefield and allow messages to flow back and forth, allow higher-ranking commanders to micromanage battles from afar, despite often-limited knowledge of the local terrain and circumstances of the unit. The result is often greater inflexibility—it is hard to improvise when a general is breathing down your neck—and higher losses of men and materiel. It can also result in tensions. Some junior officers steeped in the Western tradition have started to ignore orders from above. That is dangerous in military organisations, which rely on the prompt and faithful execution of lawful orders.

The ongoing culture war is making Ukraine’s transformation into a 21st-century fighting force an uphill battle. The West could help by stepping up its training efforts, even for Ukraine’s most senior officials. But for this to make a difference, Ukraine’s armed forces will first have to cast aside their Soviet cultural inheritance, delegate authority to lower ranks, and give junior officers permission to use their initiative without facing punishment. Technology should be used to empower units, not micromanage them, and successful experiments, such as those with drones, need to be scaled up across the force. Such a transformation could help reduce Ukraine’s casualties in this ongoing war of attrition.


Edit: Double fixed link in post
This post was edited on 3/17/23 at 6:53 pm
Posted by OutsideObserver
Oceania.
Member since Dec 2022
784 posts
Posted on 3/17/23 at 4:48 pm to
There is also this excellent article by Lt. Colonel Glen Grant a defence and reform expert who has provided advisory services to the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence. Maidan.org.ua - Glen Grant 2023 a time and chance for military change in Ukraine

It is very long and in depth so I won't post it all here but here are a few exerts. If he is acting as an advisor the to the Ukrainian MoD then hopefully they listen as his break down of the issues along with stating realistic ways to address and improve them would go a long way to fixing many of the problems that have been highlighted in recent weeks.

quote:

Despite the victories and amazingly stubborn defences in places like Bakhmut, not all is good with the management of the Ukrainian conduct of war. That is both natural and inevitable and should be expected. But lessons from war must be analysed and learned quickly. Poor results when they occur, which they always will, must be faced honestly and not glossed over with fine self-congratulatory words and speeches from government. There is growing public criticism on social media about many aspects of the Ukrainian operations ranging from tactics, leadership, laws like 8271, bureaucracy, training, and procurement, to the human rights of the families of the deceased and missing. And there are even more areas of concern to both the armed forces and society than those I mentioned.


quote:

Two things are needed as the basics of the ground forces, more close support artillery (and mortars) and properly trained and equipped infantry. The first is strongly in the hands of the international community. Even with limited new heavy equipment, the second could be improved with a stronger policy focus on developing the soldier as the key Ukrainian capability.

The current battles and changes of tactics by Russia and especially Wagner are worrying because they play directly upon the weaknesses of the Ukrainian infantry. They are using sheer numbers to overcome defences across the whole front. This was used before by Russia in WW2 when storming Berlin and huge numbers of Russians were sacrificed. They will do so again. The combat strength of Ukrainian infantry units must be solved with urgency before another wave of Orc mobilisation occurs.


quote:

A policy decision is needed to stop the current military system working from soviet style documents, rules, and regulations. Examples are everywhere. These papers slow down and even break natural processes that should be common sense in war. As the wife of former Estonian President Ilves told me this week “when you unplug common sense, there is nothing!” This is a direct and URGENT leadership issue and is causing unnecessary deaths by delay and military frustration.


quote:

At present defence weapon procurement is also hamstrung by the monopolistic reliance upon Ukroboronprom to produce things. They are not designed as a company for war. The conglomerate of companies has proven painfully slow to deliver what is needed and most not at all. It has many high-class technical people within some companies who can-do world-class R&D but they are not geared for mass production. So doing what it has shown it can already do is where Ukroboronprom can best be focused. It should not be involved in general business areas because the organisation is not designed or staffed for delivering rapid business support in war. It cannot move as quickly as new defence businesses setting up in the country or foreign businesses that would give more support if they were directly engaged and paid.




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