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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 1/24/23 at 11:43 am to GOP_Tiger
Posted on 1/24/23 at 11:43 am to GOP_Tiger
I just can’t see the U.S. sending f-15s with their spotless combat record so that’s out. It would either be the F-18 or F-16. Obviously the F-16 is in greater numbers and parts to supply it but the landing gear is a problem unless it’s a perfect runway. F-18 is stronger but there aren’t as many and not as many nations have them to be able to help train Ukrainian pilots so it has to be the F-16. Which variant could range anywhere from the Block 30/32 to the 50/52 but I’ll still believe they get planes when the deal is done. That has seemingly been a line in the sand although I hope I’m proved wrong. As far as Abrams I’m all for it but not if they have DU armor that we really want to protect getting out to the enemy. Not a tank guy but some were made without them if I’m correct?
Posted on 1/24/23 at 12:10 pm to LSUPilot07
quote:
As far as Abrams I’m all for it but not if they have DU armor that we really want to protect getting out to the enemy. Not a tank guy but some were made without them if I’m correct?
I've read that all the Abrams that the US has exported have had the depleted uranium mesh replaced with some tungsten replacement plate. I assume that isn't so hard that it would create a long delay.
Posted on 1/24/23 at 12:20 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
I've read that all the Abrams that the US has exported have had the depleted uranium mesh replaced with some tungsten replacement plate. I assume that isn't so hard that it would create a long delay.
Probably. I do know as a former Master Gunner that the fire control system is dumbed down. Or at least it was back then. A lot of the dual redundancy and gyro stuff was really dialed back.
As an aside, the reason an M1A2 burns more fuel than a M1A1 is that the A2 needs to be ran at tactical idle (higher rpms) because it needs to run the airflow to cool all of the computer components.
Posted on 1/24/23 at 12:22 pm to GOP_Tiger
The announcements are now coming in: Germany itself is going to donate a company of Leopard 2A6 tanks (good stuff -- an updated version). There are now affirmative statements from Poland, Finland, Portugal, the Netherlands, Norway, and Denmark about deliveries.
Oh, and CNN is now confirming the earlier WSJ report about US sending Abrams:
Oh, and CNN is now confirming the earlier WSJ report about US sending Abrams:
quote:
The Biden administration is finalizing plans to send US-made Abrams tanks to Ukraine and could make an announcement as soon as this week, according to three US officials familiar with the deliberations.
Posted on 1/24/23 at 12:23 pm to LSUPilot07
What exactly is the runway/landing gear issue with the F-16.
How do other countries that fly this jet, and presumably anticipate the need to fly them in war time, deal with that issue.
How do other countries that fly this jet, and presumably anticipate the need to fly them in war time, deal with that issue.
Posted on 1/24/23 at 12:38 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Germany itself is going to donate a company of Leopard 2A6 tanks (good stuff -- an updated version). There are now affirmative statements from Poland, Finland, Portugal, the Netherlands, Norway, and Denmark about deliveries.
Oh, and CNN is now confirming the earlier WSJ report about US sending Abrams:
quote:
The Biden administration is finalizing plans to send US-made Abrams tanks to Ukraine and could make an announcement as soon as this week, according to three US officials familiar with the deliberations.
Good news. Even better news the DOS is sitting in the back of the bus now and the military is running the show going forward.
The question is how many crews can get trained and how many new MBTs get in country in time for early summer. Painful summer on the horizon for the Russians.
Posted on 1/24/23 at 12:39 pm to Athanatos
quote:
What exactly is the runway/landing gear issue with the F-16.
ukrainin roads/runways are of poor quality. the f-16 has a less then forgiving landing gear.
think louisiana roads vs texas roads.....
Posted on 1/24/23 at 12:46 pm to tigeraddict
I think that the landing gear issue has been a problem with getting F-16s to Ukraine. But Ukraine has had lots of time (and still really has until May) to build new remote airfields with perfect runways. And, with all the incredible air defense systems that Ukraine is getting, Russia isn't going to be able to hit those planes, even if it were to figure out where they were on the ground.
Posted on 1/24/23 at 12:52 pm to GOP_Tiger
More good news: Switzerland, with its famed "neutrality," has been preventing export of weapons with Swiss components.
Much of the ammo for the German Gepard anti-aircraft gune, which have been extremely effective against Russian/Iranian drones, was made in Switzerland.
Additionally, Spain has wanted to send Ukraine some of its Aspide air-defense systems that have a control panel made by the Swiss.
Now, the Ukrainians can get the Gepard ammo and the Aspide systems.
LINK
Much of the ammo for the German Gepard anti-aircraft gune, which have been extremely effective against Russian/Iranian drones, was made in Switzerland.
Additionally, Spain has wanted to send Ukraine some of its Aspide air-defense systems that have a control panel made by the Swiss.
Now, the Ukrainians can get the Gepard ammo and the Aspide systems.
quote:
Explosive turnaround in arms exports: Switzerland should lend a hand for the delivery of ammunition and tanks to Ukraine
Over the weekend, the SP gave up its resistance: The Security Policy Committee of the National Council wants Germany, Denmark and Spain to be allowed to pass on weapons from Switzerland to Ukraine.
LINK
Posted on 1/24/23 at 12:58 pm to Athanatos
The nose gear on the F-16 is the main issue. It’s made and intended to be used from well kept airfields not makeshift areas like I’m sure the Ukrainians are smartly doing right now not allowing their planes to stay in one place long. Proper air defenses could go a long way to fixing that issue though and would allow Ukraine to make necessary repairs to their facilities to house the f-16s.
Posted on 1/24/23 at 1:03 pm to LSUPilot07
quote:
As far as Abrams I’m all for it but not if they have DU armor that we really want to protect getting out to the enemy.
I agree but honestly, if it was just Russia I wouldn't lose any sleep. From what I can gather the idea is less of a secret than the actual production of the DU mech armor. It apparently is an extremely difficult process. Russia time and time again proves it can't build high-tech well. Look at the T-14 if they were actually able to build them in numbers it is a serious modern MBT but they just can't. It also isn't like they aren't trying because given their armor/artillery skewed doctrine they desperately want it in production. What I worry about is China getting ahold of it. China systemically is able to copy things and while it might not be quite as good the products are often 90% as good as what they are copying. While Russia might hold the DU mech armor initially when their attempts to decode it fail China would likely get access.
Posted on 1/24/23 at 1:09 pm to GOP_Tiger
This was discussed back in December, but that was before the omnibus bill, and I suppose that it's official now, so the NY Times has a new story today:
quote:
WASHINGTON — The Pentagon is racing to boost its production of artillery shells by 500 percent within two years, pushing conventional ammunition production to levels not seen since the Korean War as it invests billions of dollars to make up for shortfalls caused by the war in Ukraine and to build up stockpiles for future conflicts.
The effort, which will involve expanding factories and bringing in new producers, is part of “the most aggressive modernization effort in nearly 40 years” for the U.S. defense industrial base, according to an Army report.
quote:
The Pentagon has declined to comment on the size of its reserves of 155-millimeter shells, but Mr. Bush said the planned increases in production would support Ukraine’s needs in real time and replenish the amount drawn down from existing stocks.
quote:
The production of artillery ammunition in the United States is a complicated process that primarily takes place in four government-owned facilities run by private defense contractors. The empty steel bodies are forged in factories in Pennsylvania run by General Dynamics, the explosives for those shells are mixed together by BAE Systems workers in Tennessee and then poured into the shells at a plant run by American Ordnance in rural Iowa, while the propellant charges to shoot them out of howitzer barrels are made by BAE in southwest Virginia.
The fuzes screwed into the nose of these shells, which are required to make the projectiles explode, are produced by contractors in other locations.
In November, the Army announced a $391 million contract with the Ontario-based company IMT Defense to make shell bodies and issued an order to General Dynamics to build a new production line for 155-millimeter shells at a factory in Garland, Texas.
A fourth domestic producer of 155-millimeter shell bodies will probably be announced soon, Mr. Bush said.
Posted on 1/24/23 at 1:14 pm to GOP_Tiger
OK. Here's a reality check from the Associated Press. Abrams probably aren't going to Ukraine anytime soon. LINK
quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) — In what would be a reversal, the Biden administration is poised to approve sending M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, U.S. officials said Tuesday, as international reluctance to send tanks to the battlefront against the Russians begins to erode. The decision could be announced as soon as Wednesday, though it could take months or years for the tanks to be delivered.
U.S. officials said details are still being worked out. One official said the tanks would be bought under an upcoming Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative package, which provides longer-range funding for weapons and equipment to be purchased from commercial vendors.
quote:
By agreeing to send the Abrams at an as-yet unspecified time under the assistance initiative, the administration is able to meet German Chancellor Olaf Scholz’s demand for an American commitment without having to send the tanks immediately.
Weapons provided through the assistance initiative can take many months to several years to reach the battlefield. Much of the aid sent so far in the 11-month-old war has been through a separate program drawing on Pentagon stocks to get weapons more quickly to Ukraine. But even under that program, it would take months to get tanks to Ukraine and to get Ukrainian forces trained on them.
It’s unknown how many tanks would be approved.
Posted on 1/24/23 at 1:20 pm to GOP_Tiger
Biggest near term impact may be that this forces Germany's hand to donate Leopard tanks sooner.
Posted on 1/24/23 at 1:29 pm to GeneralLee
quote:
Biggest near term impact may be that this forces Germany's hand to donate Leopard tanks sooner.
Funny you should say that just now.
quote:LINK
Germany to deliver 15 Leopard 2A6 tanks to Ukraine.
quote:
The German Government has reportedly made the decision to send a number of Leopard 2 Main Battle Tanks to Ukraine while also approving the Transfer Request for other Countries like Poland wishing to send Leopards.
I think that the 12 coalition that Poland has formed is supposed to be able to get 100 Leopards and England should be able to get its Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine by April. That will give Ukraine 2 tank battalions to spearhead their spring offensive(s). Meanwhile Russia is having to cancel export orders and issue refunds for T90s which can be knocked out by an AT4.
Ukraine fixing to be stacked and Russia fixing to be f**ked.
This post was edited on 1/24/23 at 1:51 pm
Posted on 1/24/23 at 1:34 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
The Biden administration is leaning toward sending a significant number of Abrams M1 tanks to Ukraine and an announcement of the deliveries could come this week, U.S. officials said.
quote:
Privately, U.S. officials were frustrated by Germany’s refusal to approve the provision of German-made tanks and have debated how to persuade Berlin to change its stance.
Pentagon officials want Leopard tanks for Ukraine, but didn’t want to send the Abrams there now, arguing that the gas-guzzling tanks with their gas turbine engines and fuel requirements make them less-than-desirable for this moment in the nearly yearlong conflict.
Some State Department and White House officials, however, have been open to meeting the German demands on the Abrams to avoid a deepening rift among Ukraine’s backers over aid to Ukraine and to expedite the delivery of more armor.
The Ukrainians already operate gas guzzling T80s and the T64, T72, Leopard2, and Challenger2 are not exactly fuel efficient. Send a some tanker trucks over with Abrams and the Ukrainians will be fine.
Posted on 1/24/23 at 1:36 pm to El Segundo Guy
I don't disagree with you at all.
Send the downgraded Abrams but not the modern one.
Send the downgraded Abrams but not the modern one.
Posted on 1/24/23 at 1:53 pm to Chromdome35
quote:
I don't disagree with you at all.
Send the downgraded Abrams but not the modern one.
What about sending the downgraded Abrams to Ukraine and sending modern Abrams to Britain and Poland in exchange for Britain and Poland sending all their Challenger2s and Leopard2s to Ukraine.
Posted on 1/24/23 at 1:59 pm to WeeWee
send the M1s the marines are taking out of service. even with 105mm rifled guns, they will be an outclass vs the T-72 they will be facing.....
This post was edited on 1/24/23 at 2:00 pm
Posted on 1/24/23 at 2:04 pm to WeeWee
I don't think I have any issue with that. I would like to hear Darth and ElSegundo's opinions.
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