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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Posted on 10/9/22 at 7:45 pm to
Posted by StormyMcMan
USA
Member since Oct 2016
4669 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 7:45 pm to
quote:

why didn't we feel obligated in 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea?


I'll admit this has always kind of bugged me. So I tried to look up some articles pre 2015 and see what was discussed. I came across this. Just go to the transcript.

Just some interesting parts I saw when I skimmed it

quote:

In the case of Ukraine we were talking about assurances which was something less, it meant that 82nd Airborne was not coming, and that was understood in Kiev. We were very clear on that question. A second point is that the actual Memorandum does not prescribe specific actions except in two cases. It prescribes a consulting mechanism and it prescribes an appeal to the United Nations Security Council in the event that nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine or threatened against Ukraine. But other actions are sort of left undefined,


quote:

I mean Ukrainian concern as articulated to us was about Russian violations of Ukrainian sovereignty or territorial integrity -- that there would be a response incumbent on the United States and on Great Britain. I think that if you look over the last 10 months you have seen the United States responding primarily in two ways, support for Ukraine and penalizing Russia in terms of particularly economic sanctions. And I think the United States government has done quite a bit. I would argue though that the United States could do more in terms of
fulfilling its obligations under Budapest.
And just briefly in terms of support for Ukraine you've seen a significant
amount of critical and economic support. Vice President Biden has been to Kiev three times in the last eight months, you've seen President Obama hosting President Poroshenko here, you've seen American support for the IMF program for Ukraine, and $120 million in non lethal military assistance. I would argue that there are probably two things more that the United States could and should be doing. One would be provision of
defensive arms. Now defensive is always a hard term. My tank is always going to be defensive; your tank is clearly offensive. But when I talk about defensive arms I'm talking about things like men, portable light anti armor weapons that I think most militaries would regard as more of a defensive weapon than an offensive weapon, the idea being giving the Ukrainians capability to inflict costs on the Russian military should the Russians resume military hostilities. And I think in a way that would help stabilize the cease fire and stabilize a settlement.
And then a second thing where the United States may be called upon in
the coming months to do is most analysts seem to expect that Ukraine will need more economic assistance to get through the course of the next year. And I think the United States and Europe should be prepared to consider that contingent on Ukraine doing what
it needs to do in terms of economic reforms


quote:

At best they only knew the name of the document. Perhaps partly misunderstanding was due to the difficulties of translations. In Ukrainian version the document is called (speaking in Ukrainian), that can be translated to English as Memorandum on Security Guarantees. In fact, however, the English version of the document is called Memorandum of Security Assurances. I am not good in English but I suppose Ambassador Steven Pifer can confirm that, that assurances and guarantees are not the same things. Moreover I was surprised to learn that at least four English words with similar but not identical meanings versus a single Ukrainian word (speaking in Ukrainian), these are guarantee, guaranty, warranty, and assurance. So our mistake was that we believed that received guarantees when in fact we only got assurances.


quote:

A practical lesson for Ukraine falls from this; it cannot rely on any international assurances. It must rely primarily on its own forces. Creating combat ready forces in the shortest possible time is a matter of life and death for Ukraine.


quote:

What can we expect from the West? We cannot expect that the West will fight for us with Russia, but we expect that the West, especially the United States, will do more to support Ukraine than they have already done. We expect that the United States will provide military assistance to Ukraine including lethal weapons and military
training of the Ukrainian army. We expect that economic sanctions against Russia will not be cancelled until Russia stops supporting armed separatists. We expect that in the
future when NATO and European Union will consider the issue of Ukraine membership the only criteria for their decision will be fulfilling the conditions necessary for membership, not the position of Russia or any other countries.


quote:

The actual American and British commitments to protect Ukraine were very weak. Steve mentioned one of them, the countries pledged to seek Security Council action in the event Ukraine was attacked or threatened with nuclear weapons.


quote:

And, you know, that example -- you know, Saudi Arabia is not a U.S. Treaty ally, but nonetheless the U.S. acted forcefully to evict Iraqi forces from Kuwait when those Iraqi forces threatened the security of the Saudi Kingdom.


And then they call put exactly what happened:
quote:

And what we have to do now if tomorrow Putin decides to launch a new offensive in Ukraine, no one will defend it with their troops. We understand this. At the best the West will introduce new sanctions against Russia. With the current state of Ukrainian army it is unlikely to win a war, but Ukraine has no choice but resistance. The submissions to Putin-Russia means putting an end to the dream of turning Ukraine into democratic state and possibly to the very existence of Ukraine as an independent state.

So I repeat we must rely only on our forces, but we expect that Western states which have at least moral obligations of not legal obligations under the Budapest Memorandum will help us more than they've almost done


There's a lot more there (including talking about the Memorandums with Belarus and Kazakhstan. But this is already a wall of text and don't want to make it worse. Good read though if you have the time
Posted by CitizenK
BR
Member since Aug 2019
15682 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 8:03 pm to
quote:

dictator-worship


You must mean icon kissing
Posted by Highthoughts
Member since Sep 2022
313 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 8:06 pm to
What a pussy.

So has no one ever done any big boy shite, ever?

Also, the meme about “wHy DiDnT wE CaRE AbOuT 2014” is a cute hunter Biden dog whistle.

We didn’t care about the Sudetenland until we did.

History is rhyming, and its the same clowns appeasing dictators 90 years later.
Posted by CitizenK
BR
Member since Aug 2019
15682 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 8:07 pm to
quote:

Oil to $140/BBL baby
Futures markets are not showing any signs of this but lower prices than today
Posted by CitizenK
BR
Member since Aug 2019
15682 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 8:10 pm to
quote:

Once Svatove falls, then Starobilsk becomes the key objective to cut the rail line that supports the entire northern Luhansk area.


Unless Ukraine bulges straight to Starobilsk and pours forces behind both Svatove and Kreminna which would be a helluva a move
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138844 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 8:20 pm to
quote:

Highthoughts
16 posts


Someone using """Highthoughts""" as an alter is a chicken SOB
Posted by WeeWee
Member since Aug 2012
45554 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 8:56 pm to
quote:

And why didn't we feel obligated in 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea?


Because the Budapest Memorandum does not commit the USA to any specific aid. It just commits the USA to aid Ukraine with whatever aid the USA feels the threat merits. Obama was weak and in 2014 Ukraine was weaker. However the USA did aid Ukraine under Obama. Obama was POTUS when the USA and started helping train the Ukrainian. Trump stepped up the level of training and how much training we were giving the Ukrainians and started giving them lethal aid. Biden is just continuing what his predecessors did, but on a larger scale to match the larger threat Ukraine faces.
Posted by WeeWee
Member since Aug 2012
45554 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 8:58 pm to
Something big and bad for Russia must be in the works. The Putin arselickers only come out this hard when they have to try and distract from bad things happening to Russia.
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
105281 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 9:10 pm to
quote:

Russian & American patrols crossed paths in al-Hasakah province, Syria, yesterday


And in 2018 they tried to overrun an American FOB, only failing due to a rain of steel falling on them.
Posted by ned nederlander
Member since Dec 2012
5895 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 9:29 pm to
quote:

The Ukes didn’t attack the bridge, it was either Russian Rebels or a typical Russian mishap like an ammo explosion


I think it was the Dolphins. Word is the Russians were trying to pass off pogies as kippers and the Dolphins got wise. And then got even.
Posted by CitizenK
BR
Member since Aug 2019
15682 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 10:15 pm to
quote:

Obama was POTUS when the USA and started helping train the Ukrainian.


Per Mark Hertling, this began in 2008 as Ukraine was sending units over to the Middle East under US Command, thus under "W"
This post was edited on 10/9/22 at 10:16 pm
Posted by CitizenK
BR
Member since Aug 2019
15682 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 10:18 pm to
quote:

I think it was the Dolphins. Word is the Russians were trying to pass off pogies as kippers and the Dolphins got wise. And then got even.


Putin had stopped paying their Seal Team. You know the trained seals that turned around in the water holding weapons and shooting squirt guns at targets.
Posted by LSU7096
Member since May 2004
3008 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 10:18 pm to
Understand. Laughing at Biden's attempts to get oil producers whom he vilified to open the taps.
Posted by supadave3
Houston, TX
Member since Dec 2005
32168 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 10:38 pm to
quote:

from Venezuela and Cuba,


Can confirm. I've seen majority Venezuelans in the volunteer effort I was in. I didn't volunteer again.
Posted by AU86
Member since Aug 2009
26257 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 10:44 pm to
quote:

And why didn't we feel obligated in 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea?


Because Obama wanted his Iran Nuclear Deal and he needed the assistance of the Russians at the table to get it. John Lerch Kerry made sure of that.
Posted by TBoy
Kalamazoo
Member since Dec 2007
28563 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 11:17 pm to
quote:

Something big and bad for Russia must be in the works. The Putin arselickers only come out this hard when they have to try and distract from bad things happening to Russia.

This has been a pattern.
Posted by stout
Porte du Lafitte
Member since Sep 2006
182237 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 11:25 pm to
quote:

Something big and bad for Russia must be in the works. The Putin arselickers only come out this hard when they have to try and distract from bad things happening to Russia.

This has been a pattern.




Some of you people need a mental hospital
Posted by momentoftruth87
Your mom
Member since Oct 2013
86110 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 11:28 pm to
I think it’s interesting Hunter Biden did business there and now there is a war.
Posted by LSUPilot07
Member since Feb 2022
8598 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 11:32 pm to
Biden should be doing what Trump would try to be doing. Getting other countries to share the burden . We have already given about 1/6th of our main howitzer the M777, around 30% of our 155 mm ammunition stocks along with about 25% of our Javelin and Stinger systems. Notice we are sending older 105 mm guns and ammunition that are being phased out of our forces. South Korea is my obvious first call if I was President. An ok size of artillery help from South Korea could completely change the war for Ukraine. South Korea could send 100 self propelled howitzers and 100 towed howitzers and never know they were gone.
Posted by momentoftruth87
Your mom
Member since Oct 2013
86110 posts
Posted on 10/9/22 at 11:37 pm to
Not to mention spent more this year on defense in Ukraine than Russia did on their mil budget. And it hasn’t been a year.
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