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Message
re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 10/9/22 at 7:45 pm to stout
Posted on 10/9/22 at 7:45 pm to stout
quote:
why didn't we feel obligated in 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea?
I'll admit this has always kind of bugged me. So I tried to look up some articles pre 2015 and see what was discussed. I came across this. Just go to the transcript.
Just some interesting parts I saw when I skimmed it
quote:
In the case of Ukraine we were talking about assurances which was something less, it meant that 82nd Airborne was not coming, and that was understood in Kiev. We were very clear on that question. A second point is that the actual Memorandum does not prescribe specific actions except in two cases. It prescribes a consulting mechanism and it prescribes an appeal to the United Nations Security Council in the event that nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine or threatened against Ukraine. But other actions are sort of left undefined,
quote:
I mean Ukrainian concern as articulated to us was about Russian violations of Ukrainian sovereignty or territorial integrity -- that there would be a response incumbent on the United States and on Great Britain. I think that if you look over the last 10 months you have seen the United States responding primarily in two ways, support for Ukraine and penalizing Russia in terms of particularly economic sanctions. And I think the United States government has done quite a bit. I would argue though that the United States could do more in terms of
fulfilling its obligations under Budapest.
And just briefly in terms of support for Ukraine you've seen a significant
amount of critical and economic support. Vice President Biden has been to Kiev three times in the last eight months, you've seen President Obama hosting President Poroshenko here, you've seen American support for the IMF program for Ukraine, and $120 million in non lethal military assistance. I would argue that there are probably two things more that the United States could and should be doing. One would be provision of
defensive arms. Now defensive is always a hard term. My tank is always going to be defensive; your tank is clearly offensive. But when I talk about defensive arms I'm talking about things like men, portable light anti armor weapons that I think most militaries would regard as more of a defensive weapon than an offensive weapon, the idea being giving the Ukrainians capability to inflict costs on the Russian military should the Russians resume military hostilities. And I think in a way that would help stabilize the cease fire and stabilize a settlement.
And then a second thing where the United States may be called upon in
the coming months to do is most analysts seem to expect that Ukraine will need more economic assistance to get through the course of the next year. And I think the United States and Europe should be prepared to consider that contingent on Ukraine doing what
it needs to do in terms of economic reforms
quote:
At best they only knew the name of the document. Perhaps partly misunderstanding was due to the difficulties of translations. In Ukrainian version the document is called (speaking in Ukrainian), that can be translated to English as Memorandum on Security Guarantees. In fact, however, the English version of the document is called Memorandum of Security Assurances. I am not good in English but I suppose Ambassador Steven Pifer can confirm that, that assurances and guarantees are not the same things. Moreover I was surprised to learn that at least four English words with similar but not identical meanings versus a single Ukrainian word (speaking in Ukrainian), these are guarantee, guaranty, warranty, and assurance. So our mistake was that we believed that received guarantees when in fact we only got assurances.
quote:
A practical lesson for Ukraine falls from this; it cannot rely on any international assurances. It must rely primarily on its own forces. Creating combat ready forces in the shortest possible time is a matter of life and death for Ukraine.
quote:
What can we expect from the West? We cannot expect that the West will fight for us with Russia, but we expect that the West, especially the United States, will do more to support Ukraine than they have already done. We expect that the United States will provide military assistance to Ukraine including lethal weapons and military
training of the Ukrainian army. We expect that economic sanctions against Russia will not be cancelled until Russia stops supporting armed separatists. We expect that in the
future when NATO and European Union will consider the issue of Ukraine membership the only criteria for their decision will be fulfilling the conditions necessary for membership, not the position of Russia or any other countries.
quote:
The actual American and British commitments to protect Ukraine were very weak. Steve mentioned one of them, the countries pledged to seek Security Council action in the event Ukraine was attacked or threatened with nuclear weapons.
quote:
And, you know, that example -- you know, Saudi Arabia is not a U.S. Treaty ally, but nonetheless the U.S. acted forcefully to evict Iraqi forces from Kuwait when those Iraqi forces threatened the security of the Saudi Kingdom.
And then they call put exactly what happened:
quote:
And what we have to do now if tomorrow Putin decides to launch a new offensive in Ukraine, no one will defend it with their troops. We understand this. At the best the West will introduce new sanctions against Russia. With the current state of Ukrainian army it is unlikely to win a war, but Ukraine has no choice but resistance. The submissions to Putin-Russia means putting an end to the dream of turning Ukraine into democratic state and possibly to the very existence of Ukraine as an independent state.
So I repeat we must rely only on our forces, but we expect that Western states which have at least moral obligations of not legal obligations under the Budapest Memorandum will help us more than they've almost done
There's a lot more there (including talking about the Memorandums with Belarus and Kazakhstan. But this is already a wall of text and don't want to make it worse. Good read though if you have the time
Posted on 10/9/22 at 8:03 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
dictator-worship
You must mean icon kissing
Posted on 10/9/22 at 8:06 pm to NC_Tigah
What a pussy.
So has no one ever done any big boy shite, ever?
Also, the meme about “wHy DiDnT wE CaRE AbOuT 2014” is a cute hunter Biden dog whistle.
We didn’t care about the Sudetenland until we did.
History is rhyming, and its the same clowns appeasing dictators 90 years later.
So has no one ever done any big boy shite, ever?
Also, the meme about “wHy DiDnT wE CaRE AbOuT 2014” is a cute hunter Biden dog whistle.
We didn’t care about the Sudetenland until we did.
History is rhyming, and its the same clowns appeasing dictators 90 years later.
Posted on 10/9/22 at 8:07 pm to LSU7096
quote:Futures markets are not showing any signs of this but lower prices than today
Oil to $140/BBL baby
Posted on 10/9/22 at 8:10 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Once Svatove falls, then Starobilsk becomes the key objective to cut the rail line that supports the entire northern Luhansk area.
Unless Ukraine bulges straight to Starobilsk and pours forces behind both Svatove and Kreminna which would be a helluva a move
Posted on 10/9/22 at 8:20 pm to Highthoughts
quote:
Highthoughts
16 posts
Someone using """Highthoughts""" as an alter is a chicken SOB
Posted on 10/9/22 at 8:56 pm to stout
quote:
And why didn't we feel obligated in 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea?
Because the Budapest Memorandum does not commit the USA to any specific aid. It just commits the USA to aid Ukraine with whatever aid the USA feels the threat merits. Obama was weak and in 2014 Ukraine was weaker. However the USA did aid Ukraine under Obama. Obama was POTUS when the USA and started helping train the Ukrainian. Trump stepped up the level of training and how much training we were giving the Ukrainians and started giving them lethal aid. Biden is just continuing what his predecessors did, but on a larger scale to match the larger threat Ukraine faces.
Posted on 10/9/22 at 8:58 pm to CitizenK
Something big and bad for Russia must be in the works. The Putin arselickers only come out this hard when they have to try and distract from bad things happening to Russia.
Posted on 10/9/22 at 9:10 pm to stout
quote:
Russian & American patrols crossed paths in al-Hasakah province, Syria, yesterday
And in 2018 they tried to overrun an American FOB, only failing due to a rain of steel falling on them.
Posted on 10/9/22 at 9:29 pm to TutHillTiger
quote:
The Ukes didn’t attack the bridge, it was either Russian Rebels or a typical Russian mishap like an ammo explosion
I think it was the Dolphins. Word is the Russians were trying to pass off pogies as kippers and the Dolphins got wise. And then got even.
Posted on 10/9/22 at 10:15 pm to WeeWee
quote:
Obama was POTUS when the USA and started helping train the Ukrainian.
Per Mark Hertling, this began in 2008 as Ukraine was sending units over to the Middle East under US Command, thus under "W"
This post was edited on 10/9/22 at 10:16 pm
Posted on 10/9/22 at 10:18 pm to ned nederlander
quote:
I think it was the Dolphins. Word is the Russians were trying to pass off pogies as kippers and the Dolphins got wise. And then got even.
Putin had stopped paying their Seal Team. You know the trained seals that turned around in the water holding weapons and shooting squirt guns at targets.
Posted on 10/9/22 at 10:18 pm to CitizenK
Understand. Laughing at Biden's attempts to get oil producers whom he vilified to open the taps.
Posted on 10/9/22 at 10:38 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
from Venezuela and Cuba,
Can confirm. I've seen majority Venezuelans in the volunteer effort I was in. I didn't volunteer again.
Posted on 10/9/22 at 10:44 pm to stout
quote:
And why didn't we feel obligated in 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea?
Because Obama wanted his Iran Nuclear Deal and he needed the assistance of the Russians at the table to get it. John Lerch Kerry made sure of that.
Posted on 10/9/22 at 11:17 pm to WeeWee
quote:
Something big and bad for Russia must be in the works. The Putin arselickers only come out this hard when they have to try and distract from bad things happening to Russia.
This has been a pattern.
Posted on 10/9/22 at 11:25 pm to TBoy
quote:
Something big and bad for Russia must be in the works. The Putin arselickers only come out this hard when they have to try and distract from bad things happening to Russia.
This has been a pattern.
Some of you people need a mental hospital
Posted on 10/9/22 at 11:28 pm to stout
I think it’s interesting Hunter Biden did business there and now there is a war.
Posted on 10/9/22 at 11:32 pm to WeeWee
Biden should be doing what Trump would try to be doing. Getting other countries to share the burden . We have already given about 1/6th of our main howitzer the M777, around 30% of our 155 mm ammunition stocks along with about 25% of our Javelin and Stinger systems. Notice we are sending older 105 mm guns and ammunition that are being phased out of our forces. South Korea is my obvious first call if I was President. An ok size of artillery help from South Korea could completely change the war for Ukraine. South Korea could send 100 self propelled howitzers and 100 towed howitzers and never know they were gone.
Posted on 10/9/22 at 11:37 pm to LSUPilot07
Not to mention spent more this year on defense in Ukraine than Russia did on their mil budget. And it hasn’t been a year.
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